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Wow first time heard someone capable of repair a Tesla. I always was assuming Tesla cars are designed to be hostile to repair outside their own factory (partial

Wow first time heard someone capable of repair a Tesla. I always was assuming Tesla cars are designed to be hostile to repair outside their own factory (partially due to inherent complexity, and market strategy as well). Also huge respect to his belief that things people bought should always be repairable by the owner (with some reasonable learned skills).

horsecaptin 8y ago
Doesn't a Tesla have fewer parts than a conventional vehicle? If so, I'd imagine that they're simpler to fix as long as the person knows what they're doing / is willing to learn. Really cool video, btw. The message is spot on!
- pretendscholar 8y ago
  Fewer parts doesn't mean easier to fix if the parts require more expensive, exotic shop equipment.
  - jgibson 8y ago
    What parts would require more fancy equipment? Induction motors are pretty dead simple and probably built to lower tolerances than the average ICE. An EV has more reliance on fancy electronics, which would be hard to replicate, but that applies to any modern day car too. Think of the engine ECU that controls fuel flow, spark timing, etc. You aren't going to pick one of those up at sparkfun.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      Think of a Tesla as a laptop computer with a very large battery bank, some powerful inverters and electric motors. It has all the complexities of a cluster on wheels, tons of software systems and as a result is hard to diagnose properly. So the first 'fancy equipment' you will need is a set of proper diagnostics equipment, which is - given the complexity involved - most likely supplied by the manufacturer or not at all. What Tesla could do - but which they would hate because it is part of their competitive edge - is to release full schematics and software listings, but no other ordinary car manufacturer does this, nor are they required to by law. Good thing too because if the Toyota ECU was anything to go by the industry would look pretty dumb.
- mikeash 8y ago
  You’re not going to be replacing piston seals or doing a transmission rebuild on one, but they’re complex and highly computerized. High voltage power electronics are probably quite exciting to work with, too.
  - flyinghamster 8y ago
    Then the proper thing to do is provide relevant safety procedures in the service manual. Combustion cars certainly have plenty of hazards (toxic and flammable liquids, poison gas, rotating machinery, and, yes, high voltages, too). Treating electric cars as "these are mystery devices that must be repaired only by us, because reasons" does the world an enormous disservice.
    - crunchlibrarian 8y ago
      That seems to be the attitude across tech, not just with electric cars. “Trust us and come into our magical garden where we take care of everything” Extremely unappealing to me.
  - dotancohen 8y ago
    When working with high energy devices - be that voltage, chemical potential, rotating mass, etc - generally "exciting" is something to be avoided.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    High voltage DC at that, until you hit the inverters after which it is 3 phase variable frequency (and still quite high voltage).
    - timpattinson 8y ago
      Still just as, if not more lethal due to high frequency AC
dyarosla 8y ago
I see this belief (that things people bought should always be repairable by the owner) by many but I always feel it’s extremely self-centered. IMO it’s reckless to think this way about repairing complex systems that can affect others. Repairing something that you own that only affects you is different from repairing something like a car that could affect others. As a completely fictional example: incorrectly repairing a complex brake system could pose a danger to other drivers and lead to an -otherwise avoidable- accident. EDIT: some responses are focusing too closely on the example of brakes- perhaps it’s not the best way to illustrate my point. Say, instead, your engine broke or your self driving car’s software was malfunctioning. Should you still have the right to repair?
- atomical 8y ago
  Several years ago I incorrectly replaced brakes on my car. Only one caliper failed and there was plenty of stopping power and warning that something was wrong. It was loud as hell! The mechanic at the garage told me that torquing nuts is tricky because if you under torque the nuts come loose. But sometimes they rust and you need to torque them more than the manufacturer spec. In that case he said that could also lead to failure. He said "we've all been there" to my glum attitude about screwing up the repair. Repairs are not always simple. Hopefully there are other protections in place if one component fails.
- userbinator 8y ago
  The problem is that taking your line of thought to its logical conclusion, we end up with a dystopian society where the bulk of the knowledge, power, and control is concentrated in a tiny minority and also enforced by such. Everything you do affects everyone else, that's no excuse to take away freedom. "No risk no life."
  - dyarosla 8y ago
    I don’t believe that’s the only logical conclusion. Perhaps there should be some base requirement for people who want to repair something- be it a certification or insurance requirement. There could definitely be degrees of freedom for repair on specific items, much like there’s a degree of freedom of usage for particular items. The right to own should not necessarily imply a right to repair for all types of items.
userbinator 8y ago
I always was assuming Tesla cars are designed to be hostile to repair outside their own factory They are. That (fortunately) doesn't stop people from still trying, and succeeding. Look up Louis Rossmann and Apple products for a analogous example.
- crooked-v 8y ago
  I think that analogy somewhat breaks down because, aside from action taken by specific companies, the non-repairability of modern laptops in general is heavily driven by the endless desire of consumers for lighter and thinner devices with more battery capacity. By contrast, for modern electric cars weight and size has so much margin that it's basically a non-issue aside from the complications of fitting the battery into the chassis. It means that car companies have far, far less of a genuine engineering-driven reason to make devices that are impossible to repair at home or in small shops.

horsecaptin 8y ago

Doesn't a Tesla have fewer parts than a conventional vehicle? If so, I'd imagine that they're simpler to fix as long as the person knows what they're doing / is willing to learn. Really cool video, btw. The message is spot on!

pretendscholar 8y ago
Fewer parts doesn't mean easier to fix if the parts require more expensive, exotic shop equipment.
- jgibson 8y ago
  What parts would require more fancy equipment? Induction motors are pretty dead simple and probably built to lower tolerances than the average ICE. An EV has more reliance on fancy electronics, which would be hard to replicate, but that applies to any modern day car too. Think of the engine ECU that controls fuel flow, spark timing, etc. You aren't going to pick one of those up at sparkfun.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Think of a Tesla as a laptop computer with a very large battery bank, some powerful inverters and electric motors. It has all the complexities of a cluster on wheels, tons of software systems and as a result is hard to diagnose properly. So the first 'fancy equipment' you will need is a set of proper diagnostics equipment, which is - given the complexity involved - most likely supplied by the manufacturer or not at all. What Tesla could do - but which they would hate because it is part of their competitive edge - is to release full schematics and software listings, but no other ordinary car manufacturer does this, nor are they required to by law. Good thing too because if the Toyota ECU was anything to go by the industry would look pretty dumb.
mikeash 8y ago
You’re not going to be replacing piston seals or doing a transmission rebuild on one, but they’re complex and highly computerized. High voltage power electronics are probably quite exciting to work with, too.
- flyinghamster 8y ago
  Then the proper thing to do is provide relevant safety procedures in the service manual. Combustion cars certainly have plenty of hazards (toxic and flammable liquids, poison gas, rotating machinery, and, yes, high voltages, too). Treating electric cars as "these are mystery devices that must be repaired only by us, because reasons" does the world an enormous disservice.
  - crunchlibrarian 8y ago
    That seems to be the attitude across tech, not just with electric cars. “Trust us and come into our magical garden where we take care of everything” Extremely unappealing to me.
- dotancohen 8y ago
  When working with high energy devices - be that voltage, chemical potential, rotating mass, etc - generally "exciting" is something to be avoided.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  High voltage DC at that, until you hit the inverters after which it is 3 phase variable frequency (and still quite high voltage).
  - timpattinson 8y ago
    Still just as, if not more lethal due to high frequency AC

dyarosla 8y ago

I see this belief (that things people bought should always be repairable by the owner) by many but I always feel it’s extremely self-centered. IMO it’s reckless to think this way about repairing complex systems that can affect others. Repairing something that you own that only affects you is different from repairing something like a car that could affect others. As a completely fictional example: incorrectly repairing a complex brake system could pose a danger to other drivers and lead to an -otherwise avoidable- accident. EDIT: some responses are focusing too closely on the example of brakes- perhaps it’s not the best way to illustrate my point. Say, instead, your engine broke or your self driving car’s software was malfunctioning. Should you still have the right to repair?

atomical 8y ago
Several years ago I incorrectly replaced brakes on my car. Only one caliper failed and there was plenty of stopping power and warning that something was wrong. It was loud as hell! The mechanic at the garage told me that torquing nuts is tricky because if you under torque the nuts come loose. But sometimes they rust and you need to torque them more than the manufacturer spec. In that case he said that could also lead to failure. He said "we've all been there" to my glum attitude about screwing up the repair. Repairs are not always simple. Hopefully there are other protections in place if one component fails.
userbinator 8y ago
The problem is that taking your line of thought to its logical conclusion, we end up with a dystopian society where the bulk of the knowledge, power, and control is concentrated in a tiny minority and also enforced by such. Everything you do affects everyone else, that's no excuse to take away freedom. "No risk no life."
- dyarosla 8y ago
  I don’t believe that’s the only logical conclusion. Perhaps there should be some base requirement for people who want to repair something- be it a certification or insurance requirement. There could definitely be degrees of freedom for repair on specific items, much like there’s a degree of freedom of usage for particular items. The right to own should not necessarily imply a right to repair for all types of items.

userbinator 8y ago

I always was assuming Tesla cars are designed to be hostile to repair outside their own factory They are. That (fortunately) doesn't stop people from still trying, and succeeding. Look up Louis Rossmann and Apple products for a analogous example.

crooked-v 8y ago
I think that analogy somewhat breaks down because, aside from action taken by specific companies, the non-repairability of modern laptops in general is heavily driven by the endless desire of consumers for lighter and thinner devices with more battery capacity. By contrast, for modern electric cars weight and size has so much margin that it's basically a non-issue aside from the complications of fitting the battery into the chassis. It means that car companies have far, far less of a genuine engineering-driven reason to make devices that are impossible to repair at home or in small shops.