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A MeToo Reckoning in China’s Workplace Amid Wave of Accusations

130 points by LopRabbit 8y ago

rlglwx 8y ago
Having worked in several Chinese tech co's, this is not in the least surprising to me. In one company I worked in, the CEO used the girls in the office like his personal harem. Women are hired based on looks and age, and whether they are married or not. The one surprising thing, to me, is that the accusations are gaining traction, which is good to hear.
- extradego 8y ago
  Your example, like all the ones in America, reflects ultimately an abuse of power. The (sensitive) males who were raised to respect women despite power relations, and do, are in for a rude awakening they’ll be helpless to defend against. Similar males with no power at all will suffer the most. “One bad apple, get rid of them all” has been the #metoo trend in America; and the apples are the male gender, not abusers of power. Because we are culturally tuned to only reward power, this kind of thinking is all too easy. Wouldn’t this tendency probably be multitudes more engrained in China? In the end, abuses of power remain king in the abstract, and I am not sure we should be so encouraging.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bad_ramen_soup 8y ago
  If the traction is informationally contained to enemies of those in positions of power, that would be pretty insincere, but if they let it happen and managed to create a new standard for how people in power should act in private-- that would be good news.
  - mortenjorck 8y ago
    That was my first reaction as well, that this could end up in line with Xi's crackdown on corruption. As the article mentions, censors are silencing some discussions, but I wouldn't be surprised if censors let through and amplify those speaking out against abusers who also happen to be critical of Xi's government.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    I mean, if the accusations are true, then who cares who it hurts. The injustice would be that OTHER people aren't being brought to justice, not that one group IS.
    - stochastic_monk 8y ago
      Except for the dangers of concentrating autocratic power. You make a good point, but context still matters.
    - Eridrus 8y ago
      You're getting downvoted because you're failing to see the bigger picture here, in much the same way journalists deciding "even if we got handed this by the russians, it's true, so we should publish it" is missing the bigger picture. Not to say that we shouldn't seek justice against these people, but that blindly making good local decisions may not end up with good global decisions.
      - Nasrudith 8y ago
        Well wouldn't the reverse also be just as bad and exploitable? The classic is 'ignore misconduct because it might help 'the enemy' make us look bad' is in itself failing to see the big picture and one of the oldest ones in the book for the wicked to retain power. The proper solution morally of course is to reject false-dichotomies and oppose wrong on all sides - especially within 'your own'.
        Eridrus 8y ago
        You're right, "ignore misconduct because it might help 'the enemy' make us look bad" has its own downsides, but the answer isn't "who cares who it hurts". There are many ways to deal with misconduct - letting adversaries weaponize information against your own at a time they choose with no care for the implications is probably not the best way.
duxup 8y ago
It is a weird dynamic, from what I understand to China is pretty far behind (just needed a word here so I chose "behind") socially in that area. Sort of Me 2 meets mid 20th century attitudes in the US?
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  The US started mass employment of women in the late 1800s. It took until the 2010s for MeToo to be taken seriously. (And by seriously, I mean that there are consequences for such actions.) Given that China actively destroyed its culture during '49-'79, and then saw the fastest growth spurt of industrialization and services ever seen in human history, it's not surprising that they're playing massive catchup. The interesting thing would be to compare womens' working conditions in the PRC vs. the ROC, HK, and Singapore, Sinosphere countries of which none of which suffered similar political turmoil and had much less compressed development.
  - Retric 8y ago
    MeToo is far from the first time this stuff has had teeth in the US. It’s more that you get waves of action, back lash, then build up for the next wave. Really you can trace US legislation back to the 70’s, but social progress is slow.
    - ams6110 8y ago
      The pendulum effect. Cultural change typically tends to go first too far in one direction then retreat and go too far in the other direction. Repeat every few decades. And maybe not fair to say it swings equally in both directions. Long-term progress is made but it tends to happen in a series of over-reaches and then pull backs.
      - sverige 8y ago
        It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have always declined. It hasn't hurt my career advancement, so no regrets. Has it hurt the development of some of the women who have been my direct reports over the years? Probably, but it has also protected the women I care about the most, namely my wife and daughter, because it has prevented any kind of accusations from getting traction. Yes, remarkably, and despite carefully avoiding any sexual talk of any sort at work for over thirty years now, I have been falsely accused of sexual harassment a handful of times over the years, but nothing has ever stuck. I think it is, in large part, because I have been so careful. This is the consistent counsel I offer to younger men at work. Some listen, most don't. A few have suffered serious career setbacks as a result of fishing off the company pier or other indiscretions, yet it could have been so easily avoided. I'm glad I only have another ten years or so to go. It would be a lot tougher to survive in today's climate as a young man.
dmritard96 8y ago
I have spent a good amount of time in the mainland as a foreigner. The way that men talk about women, particularly in professional settings, is decades behind imho. KTV alone - I have heard some pretty terribls sounding stories there as well although have been lucky to only have gone to the normal ktv. A simple example is booth babes at tech shows. In the US, general consensus is that this is exploitive. In China it seems quite normative.
- Twirrim 8y ago
  > In the US, general consensus is that this is exploitive. In China it seems quite normative. We're not that great about it in the US either. It's still an issue that people are having to fight, repeatedly. The US is definitely getting better, but it's far from solved.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    At least people are trying to solve it in the US, and those people also include a sizable amount of men.
  - darawk 8y ago
    I think the distinction that he's drawing is that in the US, the cultural consensus is that this behavior is not ok, even though it still goes on. There's this in-between space that we get to about things like this where we all (mostly) decide its not ok, but lots of people still do it and/or protect those that do. China seems to still be in the first stage though, of not having culturally come to agreement that this sort of thing isn't just normal and acceptable.
- dogruck 8y ago
  So, you think the Chinese culture is “decades behind” the American culture? That sounds racist to me.
  - yzmtf2008 8y ago
    In terms of gender equality, yes, decades behind. Don’t make generalizations that the OP didn’t make.
mirimir 8y ago
Didn't women play a substantial role in the Cultural Revolution? Such as Jiang Qing and Nie Yuanzi?
- maym86 8y ago
  What's that got to do with modern workplace sexual harassment.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    I'm not sure. But maybe it has something to do with the evolution of gender equality in China? That is, maybe reaction against the Cultural Revolution and the Red Guards has reinforced male dominance? Baggage aside, the current Chinese government seems more Confucian than Communist.
    - bad_ramen_soup 8y ago
      Isn't it better to see it from the perspective of 'people in power can be sinful', rather than 'because there were some female leaders early on in a (highly propagandistic) movement then they most be on the side of women? Even still, there are many women who harbor men with bad behavior for personal gain.
      - bobthepanda 8y ago
        Of course it's better, but how often does human behavior act in better or more logical ways? Humans are not the rational, well-informed beings of economics.
        bad_ramen_soup 8y ago
        Not sure how this relates to my comment..
      - mirimir 8y ago
        What I'm wondering is whether the Red Guards -- notwithstanding all the horrible stuff -- were less sexist and more egalitarian than the norm today. I have no clue. I'm not Chinese, or lived there, or even studied China carefully. And maybe I'm too influenced by Cixin Liu's "Remembrance of Earth's Past" trilogy.
baobaobo 8y ago
Stupid American think that world thinks like them. Nobody gives a fuck about you cucks. Chong women are there so men feel better and not have to bear sjws and curry indian women.
baobaobo 8y ago
Women have no contributions irrespective of how much noise you make. Many are better suited at home cooking and cleaning.
- jjoonathan 8y ago
  If you want flames, you'll have to do a better job at sounding reasonable. Downvotes are free, though.
  - CaptSpify 8y ago
    Don't feed the trolls ;)
baobaobo 8y ago
When can we get good looking women here so we feel better? It's either sjws or curry smell Indian women or ugly Chinese?
baobaobo 8y ago
Is kek real?
Krasnol 8y ago
I'm sure the crowd control mechanism (social credit system) can be utilized in some way here no?
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  The government is actively censoring such posts, so no.
  - Krasnol 8y ago
    Forgot the /s Chances are that it will rather be utilized against the women...
- Erlich_Bachman 8y ago
  Perhaps the downvoters are unaware of the specific Chinese program of the social credit system experiment ongoing even right now? https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-social-credit https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-social-credit If so, it is understandable that they would not see this as any serious matter, because in the west, the maximum that such a system is worth of is a Black Mirror episode. In China, this is now an everyday reality for many people.
mooseburger 8y ago
#MeToo this, #MeToo that. #MeToo is irrelevant when compared to the Rotherham and Telford child rape gangs, yet, hardly anyone knows about them. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28934963 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28934963 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-shropshire-43385049 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-shropshire-43385049
- Krasnol 8y ago
  Why not both?
  - mooseburger 8y ago
    That would be fine, I'm just pointing out the rape gangs dwarf the magnitude of harm MeToo uncovered, yet public exposure of MeToo dwarfs the public exposure of the rape gangs
    - Krasnol 8y ago
      Don't you think that the amount of people being victims in #metoo are just louder because they can be on twitter and tweet #metoo? Silencing them wouldn't bring your topic up because it's doing a bad job at promoting itself already (how could they?). It would just bring up other topics that promote them self. Of course being a dick about it, doesn't help the issue either.
      - mooseburger 8y ago
        Sure, the victims in Rotherham can't actually amplify it themselves, but typically, it's the media, who amplify such causes, not the victims. Consider the pedophilia plague in the Catholic church, that absolutely did not become world famous due to Twitter. The left notably also justifiably kicks up a ruckus over less, but were oddly silent on the rape gangs, as documented by a leftist himself here: https://medium.com/@TheWakeful/the-uk-street-grooming-scandals-how-the-left-has-failed-in-its-responsibilities-15e507e227f7 https://medium.com/@TheWakeful/the-uk-street-grooming-scanda...
xasd4 8y ago
That really cuts directly at the business cultural in China and China is very passionate about ridged reasoning and rebuking things they don’t like as not being Chinese. MeToo in China goes for the jugular of these attitudes, good for them.
crazy_monkey 8y ago
Men (and women) who participate in abuse should be stripped of rank and flogged...
ledriveby 8y ago
Not surprised! Check out this overtly sexist recruiting video by Alibaba: https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005795093/chinese-tech-companies-dirty-secret.html?action=click&gtype=vhs&version=vhs-heading&module=vhs&region=title-area&cview=true&t=23 https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005795093/chines...
- sumedh 8y ago
  Before clicking the link I was expecting some light sexism, I was not prepared for women employees opening bottles stuck between men's legs. Wow
cromwellian 8y ago
One thought that crossed my mind is the extent to which Xi's government can ride this wave and use it to eliminate political enemies. The old way was to accuse political enemies of corruption and have them jailed. I wonder if the new way is to get them accused of sex crimes, or just ruin their reputation in China so that they become radioactive to work with. I think whether or not these posts are censored will tell you what's likely. If they are taken down quickly, it's probably not government instigated, but if they're not removed, then it leads to the suspicion that the government wants these published.
powerapple 8y ago
no worries, our future will be sexless anyway. It takes time.

130 points by LopRabbit 8y ago

Having worked in several Chinese tech co's, this is not in the least surprising to me. In one company I worked in, the CEO used the girls in the office like his personal harem. Women are hired based on looks and age, and whether they are married or not. The one surprising thing, to me, is that the accusations are gaining traction, which is good to hear.

extradego 8y ago
Your example, like all the ones in America, reflects ultimately an abuse of power. The (sensitive) males who were raised to respect women despite power relations, and do, are in for a rude awakening they’ll be helpless to defend against. Similar males with no power at all will suffer the most. “One bad apple, get rid of them all” has been the #metoo trend in America; and the apples are the male gender, not abusers of power. Because we are culturally tuned to only reward power, this kind of thinking is all too easy. Wouldn’t this tendency probably be multitudes more engrained in China? In the end, abuses of power remain king in the abstract, and I am not sure we should be so encouraging.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bad_ramen_soup 8y ago
If the traction is informationally contained to enemies of those in positions of power, that would be pretty insincere, but if they let it happen and managed to create a new standard for how people in power should act in private-- that would be good news.
- mortenjorck 8y ago
  That was my first reaction as well, that this could end up in line with Xi's crackdown on corruption. As the article mentions, censors are silencing some discussions, but I wouldn't be surprised if censors let through and amplify those speaking out against abusers who also happen to be critical of Xi's government.
- stale2002 8y ago
  I mean, if the accusations are true, then who cares who it hurts. The injustice would be that OTHER people aren't being brought to justice, not that one group IS.
  - stochastic_monk 8y ago
    Except for the dangers of concentrating autocratic power. You make a good point, but context still matters.
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    You're getting downvoted because you're failing to see the bigger picture here, in much the same way journalists deciding "even if we got handed this by the russians, it's true, so we should publish it" is missing the bigger picture. Not to say that we shouldn't seek justice against these people, but that blindly making good local decisions may not end up with good global decisions.
    - Nasrudith 8y ago
      Well wouldn't the reverse also be just as bad and exploitable? The classic is 'ignore misconduct because it might help 'the enemy' make us look bad' is in itself failing to see the big picture and one of the oldest ones in the book for the wicked to retain power. The proper solution morally of course is to reject false-dichotomies and oppose wrong on all sides - especially within 'your own'.
      - Eridrus 8y ago
        You're right, "ignore misconduct because it might help 'the enemy' make us look bad" has its own downsides, but the answer isn't "who cares who it hurts". There are many ways to deal with misconduct - letting adversaries weaponize information against your own at a time they choose with no care for the implications is probably not the best way.

duxup 8y ago

It is a weird dynamic, from what I understand to China is pretty far behind (just needed a word here so I chose "behind") socially in that area. Sort of Me 2 meets mid 20th century attitudes in the US?

bobthepanda 8y ago
The US started mass employment of women in the late 1800s. It took until the 2010s for MeToo to be taken seriously. (And by seriously, I mean that there are consequences for such actions.) Given that China actively destroyed its culture during '49-'79, and then saw the fastest growth spurt of industrialization and services ever seen in human history, it's not surprising that they're playing massive catchup. The interesting thing would be to compare womens' working conditions in the PRC vs. the ROC, HK, and Singapore, Sinosphere countries of which none of which suffered similar political turmoil and had much less compressed development.
- Retric 8y ago
  MeToo is far from the first time this stuff has had teeth in the US. It’s more that you get waves of action, back lash, then build up for the next wave. Really you can trace US legislation back to the 70’s, but social progress is slow.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    The pendulum effect. Cultural change typically tends to go first too far in one direction then retreat and go too far in the other direction. Repeat every few decades. And maybe not fair to say it swings equally in both directions. Long-term progress is made but it tends to happen in a series of over-reaches and then pull backs.
    - sverige 8y ago
      It's definitely past the mid-point right now. I'm fortunate to have begun my career just as the excesses of the second wave reached their peak, so I've spent my entire worklife assiduously avoiding any appearance of impropriety. I have never met with a female coworker alone in an office, and have never socialized with women coworkers outside of work. Many have tried to shame me into going out with a group, but I have always declined. It hasn't hurt my career advancement, so no regrets. Has it hurt the development of some of the women who have been my direct reports over the years? Probably, but it has also protected the women I care about the most, namely my wife and daughter, because it has prevented any kind of accusations from getting traction. Yes, remarkably, and despite carefully avoiding any sexual talk of any sort at work for over thirty years now, I have been falsely accused of sexual harassment a handful of times over the years, but nothing has ever stuck. I think it is, in large part, because I have been so careful. This is the consistent counsel I offer to younger men at work. Some listen, most don't. A few have suffered serious career setbacks as a result of fishing off the company pier or other indiscretions, yet it could have been so easily avoided. I'm glad I only have another ten years or so to go. It would be a lot tougher to survive in today's climate as a young man.

dmritard96 8y ago

I have spent a good amount of time in the mainland as a foreigner. The way that men talk about women, particularly in professional settings, is decades behind imho. KTV alone - I have heard some pretty terribls sounding stories there as well although have been lucky to only have gone to the normal ktv. A simple example is booth babes at tech shows. In the US, general consensus is that this is exploitive. In China it seems quite normative.

Twirrim 8y ago
> In the US, general consensus is that this is exploitive. In China it seems quite normative. We're not that great about it in the US either. It's still an issue that people are having to fight, repeatedly. The US is definitely getting better, but it's far from solved.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  At least people are trying to solve it in the US, and those people also include a sizable amount of men.
- darawk 8y ago
  I think the distinction that he's drawing is that in the US, the cultural consensus is that this behavior is not ok, even though it still goes on. There's this in-between space that we get to about things like this where we all (mostly) decide its not ok, but lots of people still do it and/or protect those that do. China seems to still be in the first stage though, of not having culturally come to agreement that this sort of thing isn't just normal and acceptable.
dogruck 8y ago
So, you think the Chinese culture is “decades behind” the American culture? That sounds racist to me.
- yzmtf2008 8y ago
  In terms of gender equality, yes, decades behind. Don’t make generalizations that the OP didn’t make.

mirimir 8y ago

Didn't women play a substantial role in the Cultural Revolution? Such as Jiang Qing and Nie Yuanzi?

maym86 8y ago
What's that got to do with modern workplace sexual harassment.
- mirimir 8y ago
  I'm not sure. But maybe it has something to do with the evolution of gender equality in China? That is, maybe reaction against the Cultural Revolution and the Red Guards has reinforced male dominance? Baggage aside, the current Chinese government seems more Confucian than Communist.
  - bad_ramen_soup 8y ago
    Isn't it better to see it from the perspective of 'people in power can be sinful', rather than 'because there were some female leaders early on in a (highly propagandistic) movement then they most be on the side of women? Even still, there are many women who harbor men with bad behavior for personal gain.
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      Of course it's better, but how often does human behavior act in better or more logical ways? Humans are not the rational, well-informed beings of economics.
      - bad_ramen_soup 8y ago
        Not sure how this relates to my comment..
    - mirimir 8y ago
      What I'm wondering is whether the Red Guards -- notwithstanding all the horrible stuff -- were less sexist and more egalitarian than the norm today. I have no clue. I'm not Chinese, or lived there, or even studied China carefully. And maybe I'm too influenced by Cixin Liu's "Remembrance of Earth's Past" trilogy.

baobaobo 8y ago

Stupid American think that world thinks like them. Nobody gives a fuck about you cucks. Chong women are there so men feel better and not have to bear sjws and curry indian women.

baobaobo 8y ago

Women have no contributions irrespective of how much noise you make. Many are better suited at home cooking and cleaning.

jjoonathan 8y ago
If you want flames, you'll have to do a better job at sounding reasonable. Downvotes are free, though.
- CaptSpify 8y ago
  Don't feed the trolls ;)

baobaobo 8y ago

When can we get good looking women here so we feel better? It's either sjws or curry smell Indian women or ugly Chinese?

baobaobo 8y ago

Is kek real?

Krasnol 8y ago

I'm sure the crowd control mechanism (social credit system) can be utilized in some way here no?

bobthepanda 8y ago
The government is actively censoring such posts, so no.
- Krasnol 8y ago
  Forgot the /s Chances are that it will rather be utilized against the women...
Erlich_Bachman 8y ago
Perhaps the downvoters are unaware of the specific Chinese program of the social credit system experiment ongoing even right now? https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-social-credit https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-social-credit If so, it is understandable that they would not see this as any serious matter, because in the west, the maximum that such a system is worth of is a Black Mirror episode. In China, this is now an everyday reality for many people.

mooseburger 8y ago

#MeToo this, #MeToo that. #MeToo is irrelevant when compared to the Rotherham and Telford child rape gangs, yet, hardly anyone knows about them. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28934963 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28934963 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-shropshire-43385049 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-shropshire-43385049

Krasnol 8y ago
Why not both?
- mooseburger 8y ago
  That would be fine, I'm just pointing out the rape gangs dwarf the magnitude of harm MeToo uncovered, yet public exposure of MeToo dwarfs the public exposure of the rape gangs
  - Krasnol 8y ago
    Don't you think that the amount of people being victims in #metoo are just louder because they can be on twitter and tweet #metoo? Silencing them wouldn't bring your topic up because it's doing a bad job at promoting itself already (how could they?). It would just bring up other topics that promote them self. Of course being a dick about it, doesn't help the issue either.
    - mooseburger 8y ago
      Sure, the victims in Rotherham can't actually amplify it themselves, but typically, it's the media, who amplify such causes, not the victims. Consider the pedophilia plague in the Catholic church, that absolutely did not become world famous due to Twitter. The left notably also justifiably kicks up a ruckus over less, but were oddly silent on the rape gangs, as documented by a leftist himself here: https://medium.com/@TheWakeful/the-uk-street-grooming-scandals-how-the-left-has-failed-in-its-responsibilities-15e507e227f7 https://medium.com/@TheWakeful/the-uk-street-grooming-scanda...

xasd4 8y ago

That really cuts directly at the business cultural in China and China is very passionate about ridged reasoning and rebuking things they don’t like as not being Chinese. MeToo in China goes for the jugular of these attitudes, good for them.

crazy_monkey 8y ago

Men (and women) who participate in abuse should be stripped of rank and flogged...

ledriveby 8y ago

Not surprised! Check out this overtly sexist recruiting video by Alibaba: https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005795093/chinese-tech-companies-dirty-secret.html?action=click&gtype=vhs&version=vhs-heading&module=vhs&region=title-area&cview=true&t=23 https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000005795093/chines...

sumedh 8y ago
Before clicking the link I was expecting some light sexism, I was not prepared for women employees opening bottles stuck between men's legs. Wow

cromwellian 8y ago

One thought that crossed my mind is the extent to which Xi's government can ride this wave and use it to eliminate political enemies. The old way was to accuse political enemies of corruption and have them jailed. I wonder if the new way is to get them accused of sex crimes, or just ruin their reputation in China so that they become radioactive to work with. I think whether or not these posts are censored will tell you what's likely. If they are taken down quickly, it's probably not government instigated, but if they're not removed, then it leads to the suspicion that the government wants these published.

powerapple 8y ago

no worries, our future will be sexless anyway. It takes time.