5 ms·

It should be illegal to harass or prosecute parents for leaving their child alone for a few minutes.... What really astounds me is that I'm not that old, and I

by magduf 8y ago

It should be illegal to harass or prosecute parents for leaving their child alone for a few minutes.... What really astounds me is that I'm not that old, and I clearly remember being able to run around or ride my bike around town for miles without any adult supervision, at the age of 8 or so. Things have really changed in this country.

zrail 8y ago
I'm 34 and I remember being left alone in the car all the time while my mom ran errands or whatever. I specifically remember a time when I discovered how the cigarette lighter (remember those?) worked when I burned the tip of my finger on it while my mom was in the post office. I rode my bike all over town. Several times my friends and I walked across town to the video store by ourselves, rented a Sega Genesis and a few games, and hauled it all back to someone's house and stayed up all night. I was probably around 12.
api 8y ago
I did those kinds of things too and a lot more. Crime rates were much higher back then and there were no cell phones or other easy communication devices that would allow the kid themselves or a random pedestrian or motorist to rapidly notify authorities if something is wrong. The safer our society gets the more afraid we become and the less tolerant we seem to become of risk. I wonder if it's a cognitive analog of the hygiene hypothesis for allergies. There's a part of our brain that is built for a world of conflict, danger, and scarcity and in an abundant modern developed nation it just has nothing to do but declare war on phantoms and crusade against minute or non-existent risks. I've had debates with people recently about how bad crime is becoming and how dangerous things are. I show them graphs of crime and violence for the past 30 years. I often get total unironic disbelief -- as in they don't believe it and think the sources are biased and there's some kind of conspiracy to suppress the real statistics on crime. Things were much more dangerous in the 60s through the early 90s and people felt a lot safer.
- simonbyrne 8y ago
  I've recently moved to the US from the UK, and I've had several Americans mention that they would like to visit Europe but are worried about the danger of terrorism. I tried to explain that any increased risk of terrorism is massively outweighed by the large decrease in risk of dying in a car accident, but that wasn't terribly successful.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    If you're visting Kabul you've got a legit reason to be afraid of terrorism — if you're afraid of terrorism in Munich, Berlin, Hamburg or Hanover you're simply a propaganda victim.
    - paulddraper 8y ago
      > massively outweighed by the large decrease in risk of dying in a car accident Death by car is kind of the concern.... > simply a propaganda victim Last 3 years: [1] * Car attack by the Islamic State in Barcelona (24 killed, 152 injured) * Car + knife attack by the Islamic State in London (11 killed, 48 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Manchester (23 killed, 250 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Berlin (12 killed, 56 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Nice, France (87 killed, 434 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Brussels (35 killed, 340 injured) * Shooting and bombing by the Islamic State in Paris (137 killed, 368 injured) Yes, you're right....a dozen here and hundred there means nothing in the overall picture of Western Europe. But it doesn't exactly take a propaganda machine for that to have a significant physiological effect. Especially when looking at the details: these weren't back-alley muggings, bad-part-of-town shootings, or gang turf struggles. They were in tourist-friendly, public places in broad daylight, with substantial law enforcement presence. (Four unarmed police officers died trying to stop the stabbers on London Bridge.) The story of the few seems to naturally have a large effect on the human mind. HN top 20 currently has a story of a mishandled justice for a single person https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 See the comments for extrapolation onto the judgment of the US justice system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_...
- magduf 8y ago
  >The safer our society gets the more afraid we become and the less tolerant we seem to become of risk. I completely disagree. Even with our crime rates being much lower than decades ago, the US is still nowhere near as safe as Japan, yet in Japan they're not remotely as risk-averse as we are (particularly in regards to kids being outside without their parents). It's very much part of their culture to have kids walk themselves to school at an early age. I'm pretty sure it's similar in western European and Scandinavian countries: they're very safe too (particularly the Scandinavian ones), and don't treat kids and parents this way. This is something unique to the US. And this really touches on something I think Americans are really, really horrible at: thinking about the rest of the world. Instead of looking at our brains and trying to use psychology to figure this out, why not just look at what other humans in other countries are doing? Americans are not biologically unique. This is a cultural problem.
  - api 8y ago
    The thing that doesn't work with that argument is that our crime rates really were substantially higher back when we let our kids roam free. We aren't as safe as some countries but we're a lot safer than we were in, say, 1980 or 1990. The urban crime wave of the 1970s - 1990s really was pretty awful.
    - LanceH 8y ago
      So what you're saying is...the kids were the real criminals all along.
      - closetohome 8y ago
        Everything is fine now that we got all those little hooligans off the streets.
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    > This is a cultural problem. Obviously. > why not just look at what other humans in other countries are doing? Like some sort of top-down policy...what exactly are you referring to? --- api conjectured about the cause of the US culture shift over the past few decades, but never said that child protectionism had a univariate relationship.
- brandonmenc 8y ago
  > Things were much more dangerous in the 60s through the early 90s and people felt a lot safer. I seriously think that the glut of sick and twisted TV shows and movies that depict the most horrific crimes imaginable are partly to blame. When I go to my parents' house and they're watching primetime network TV, I'm shocked at the content. Blood and guts and torture and sex crimes all over the place.
  - api 8y ago
    Skepticism is always warranted around speculations like this, but I've wondered for many years if there isn't a deliberate campaign to keep people in a state of fear. There's a fairly decent BBC piece that explores this idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg It basically argues that people no longer buy into utopian political ideologies so politicians and political parties have pivoted toward using negative arguments (fear, hate) to motivate the people to follow them. It's not really an elaborate conspiracy theory per se... think of it as a marketing pivot.
    - brandonmenc 8y ago
      Conspiracy? Honestly, I think it's just very entertaining content made by adults who grew up as kids addicted to slasher films, violent video games, and police procedurals.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    Yeah I found that quite surprising, too. It's not like I'm not consuming action-blood-guts-media, but that's generally more disconnected from reality (scifi, WW3, fantasy etc.). I can see how watching crime shows depicting this-could-really-happen-in-your-neighborhood crimes on a daily basis could shift perception. These often tend to heavily lean on stereotypes and tropes, too, so I wouldn't be surprised if these shows reinforce them.
JeanMarcS 8y ago
That’s just a supposition but I guess 9/11 was the big trauma that sets new standards. You can be hit at home, going to work or else. Of course crime existed before, but the enormity of that tragedy moved the cursor I think.
yontherubicon 8y ago
I'm in my 20's. I remember the same
bvc35 8y ago
No. If I see a kid in a car, I don't know how long he or she has been in there. Temperature in closed cars rises dramatically and unpredictably, in ways that affect children and infants more quickly than adults (in some cases, it might hurt a child or infant in literally a few minutes). If taking a child with you for a few minutes is too much for someone to handle, I seriously doubt if they have the fortitude to be a non-negligent parent.

by magduf 8y ago

zrail 8y ago

I'm 34 and I remember being left alone in the car all the time while my mom ran errands or whatever. I specifically remember a time when I discovered how the cigarette lighter (remember those?) worked when I burned the tip of my finger on it while my mom was in the post office. I rode my bike all over town. Several times my friends and I walked across town to the video store by ourselves, rented a Sega Genesis and a few games, and hauled it all back to someone's house and stayed up all night. I was probably around 12.

api 8y ago

I did those kinds of things too and a lot more. Crime rates were much higher back then and there were no cell phones or other easy communication devices that would allow the kid themselves or a random pedestrian or motorist to rapidly notify authorities if something is wrong. The safer our society gets the more afraid we become and the less tolerant we seem to become of risk. I wonder if it's a cognitive analog of the hygiene hypothesis for allergies. There's a part of our brain that is built for a world of conflict, danger, and scarcity and in an abundant modern developed nation it just has nothing to do but declare war on phantoms and crusade against minute or non-existent risks. I've had debates with people recently about how bad crime is becoming and how dangerous things are. I show them graphs of crime and violence for the past 30 years. I often get total unironic disbelief -- as in they don't believe it and think the sources are biased and there's some kind of conspiracy to suppress the real statistics on crime. Things were much more dangerous in the 60s through the early 90s and people felt a lot safer.

simonbyrne 8y ago
I've recently moved to the US from the UK, and I've had several Americans mention that they would like to visit Europe but are worried about the danger of terrorism. I tried to explain that any increased risk of terrorism is massively outweighed by the large decrease in risk of dying in a car accident, but that wasn't terribly successful.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  If you're visting Kabul you've got a legit reason to be afraid of terrorism — if you're afraid of terrorism in Munich, Berlin, Hamburg or Hanover you're simply a propaganda victim.
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    > massively outweighed by the large decrease in risk of dying in a car accident Death by car is kind of the concern.... > simply a propaganda victim Last 3 years: [1] * Car attack by the Islamic State in Barcelona (24 killed, 152 injured) * Car + knife attack by the Islamic State in London (11 killed, 48 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Manchester (23 killed, 250 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Berlin (12 killed, 56 injured) * Car attack by the Islamic State in Nice, France (87 killed, 434 injured) * Bombing by the Islamic State in Brussels (35 killed, 340 injured) * Shooting and bombing by the Islamic State in Paris (137 killed, 368 injured) Yes, you're right....a dozen here and hundred there means nothing in the overall picture of Western Europe. But it doesn't exactly take a propaganda machine for that to have a significant physiological effect. Especially when looking at the details: these weren't back-alley muggings, bad-part-of-town shootings, or gang turf struggles. They were in tourist-friendly, public places in broad daylight, with substantial law enforcement presence. (Four unarmed police officers died trying to stop the stabbers on London Bridge.) The story of the few seems to naturally have a large effect on the human mind. HN top 20 currently has a story of a mishandled justice for a single person https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17625385 See the comments for extrapolation onto the judgment of the US justice system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_...
magduf 8y ago
>The safer our society gets the more afraid we become and the less tolerant we seem to become of risk. I completely disagree. Even with our crime rates being much lower than decades ago, the US is still nowhere near as safe as Japan, yet in Japan they're not remotely as risk-averse as we are (particularly in regards to kids being outside without their parents). It's very much part of their culture to have kids walk themselves to school at an early age. I'm pretty sure it's similar in western European and Scandinavian countries: they're very safe too (particularly the Scandinavian ones), and don't treat kids and parents this way. This is something unique to the US. And this really touches on something I think Americans are really, really horrible at: thinking about the rest of the world. Instead of looking at our brains and trying to use psychology to figure this out, why not just look at what other humans in other countries are doing? Americans are not biologically unique. This is a cultural problem.
- api 8y ago
  The thing that doesn't work with that argument is that our crime rates really were substantially higher back when we let our kids roam free. We aren't as safe as some countries but we're a lot safer than we were in, say, 1980 or 1990. The urban crime wave of the 1970s - 1990s really was pretty awful.
  - LanceH 8y ago
    So what you're saying is...the kids were the real criminals all along.
    - closetohome 8y ago
      Everything is fine now that we got all those little hooligans off the streets.
- paulddraper 8y ago
  > This is a cultural problem. Obviously. > why not just look at what other humans in other countries are doing? Like some sort of top-down policy...what exactly are you referring to? --- api conjectured about the cause of the US culture shift over the past few decades, but never said that child protectionism had a univariate relationship.
brandonmenc 8y ago
> Things were much more dangerous in the 60s through the early 90s and people felt a lot safer. I seriously think that the glut of sick and twisted TV shows and movies that depict the most horrific crimes imaginable are partly to blame. When I go to my parents' house and they're watching primetime network TV, I'm shocked at the content. Blood and guts and torture and sex crimes all over the place.
- api 8y ago
  Skepticism is always warranted around speculations like this, but I've wondered for many years if there isn't a deliberate campaign to keep people in a state of fear. There's a fairly decent BBC piece that explores this idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg It basically argues that people no longer buy into utopian political ideologies so politicians and political parties have pivoted toward using negative arguments (fear, hate) to motivate the people to follow them. It's not really an elaborate conspiracy theory per se... think of it as a marketing pivot.
  - brandonmenc 8y ago
    Conspiracy? Honestly, I think it's just very entertaining content made by adults who grew up as kids addicted to slasher films, violent video games, and police procedurals.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  Yeah I found that quite surprising, too. It's not like I'm not consuming action-blood-guts-media, but that's generally more disconnected from reality (scifi, WW3, fantasy etc.). I can see how watching crime shows depicting this-could-really-happen-in-your-neighborhood crimes on a daily basis could shift perception. These often tend to heavily lean on stereotypes and tropes, too, so I wouldn't be surprised if these shows reinforce them.

JeanMarcS 8y ago

That’s just a supposition but I guess 9/11 was the big trauma that sets new standards. You can be hit at home, going to work or else. Of course crime existed before, but the enormity of that tragedy moved the cursor I think.

yontherubicon 8y ago

I'm in my 20's. I remember the same

bvc35 8y ago

No. If I see a kid in a car, I don't know how long he or she has been in there. Temperature in closed cars rises dramatically and unpredictably, in ways that affect children and infants more quickly than adults (in some cases, it might hurt a child or infant in literally a few minutes). If taking a child with you for a few minutes is too much for someone to handle, I seriously doubt if they have the fortitude to be a non-negligent parent.