12 ms·

I’m not a Luddite by any stretch and I’ve had smart phones since they were quite dumb, but your reasons don’t ring for me: > I can communicate with my fiancee

by koolba 8y ago

I’m not a Luddite by any stretch and I’ve had smart phones since they were quite dumb, but your reasons don’t ring for me: > I can communicate with my fiancee even when she's in another country (international sms = fail). It facilitates instant communications. Email across the planet has been around since day one. > I can have a fiancee who's in another country. I can assure you this was possible pre-smart phone. > When I'm on the train I can do something meaningful to me. The counter point to this is millions of man years wasted streaming mind numbing video. > When I'm not on the train, I can know when it's actually going to arrive so I can do something fun instead of waiting on the platform. Mass transit has had posted schedules for many years. It is nice to see an updated one with up to the minute tracking but it wasn’t that inconvenient either. > If I'm having a discussion with friends I can call up the information I'm missing. I’m probably showing my age but I miss having a pointless yet heated argument that couldn’t be settled in 15 seconds on a smart phone. The feeling of being right when you finally do get to confirm the answer is worth so much more. > I can listen to music and podcasts while I go for a walk or a ride. You don’t need internet for that, just some planning to have the content downloaded in advance. > I can plan my trips instead of listening to the boring parts of conversations. If you’re describing zoning out of the real world people around you to doodle on your phone that’s sad. > I can take nice photos when I didn't expect it. Okay this one I agree. The best camera is the one you actually have. Counterpoint is we’re approaching peak photo.

mooreds 8y ago
What do you mean by "peak photo"?
- WalterSear 8y ago
  They mean the Photomeggadon. The Photocalypse. The Big Kodak Moment. IMNSHO, the parent is simply behaving reactively to the threat of new paradigms. Email does not convey the emotion of a phone call, let alone a video call. Easy access to information fosters discussion - by ending pointless, heated debates over nothing. Only teenagers, and I now presume, older people, fuddle with their phones instead of talking to the person in front of them.
  - skorbenko 8y ago
    As a Gen Z-er, email for me is an opportunity to write long letters, mulling over every word to convey the emotion just right. However, if I am with someone at the present moment, all of my attention is on him/her.
  - PokemonNoGo 8y ago
    >Photomeggadon One hit on google and that's you! Nice!
    - eequah9L 8y ago
      That's just because Google doesn't index Library of Babel! https://libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cgi?fsgju,xzpeiboivi.ul69 https://libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cgi?fsgju,xzpeiboivi.ul...
  - true_religion 8y ago
    Emails are a replacement for letter writing, not a replacement for phone calls. When they seemingly replace a phone call, its usually because the institution would have liked to use only letter writing but couldn't for some non-technical reason. Like a company processing refunds and cancelations by phone in order to have the opportunity to convince clients not to cancel (i.e. non-technical reason), now uses email or chat systems to accomplish the same thing.
  - fps_doug 8y ago
    > Email does not convey the emotion of a phone call, let alone a video call. Certainly does not, and it's a nice bonus, but when on earth do people use video calls? Since they are even better at conveying emotions, by your logic everybody carrying a smartphone should be making video calls at all times. But it's the contrary, people even prefer texting on Whatsapp over phone calls or even voice messages. > Easy access to information fosters discussion - by ending pointless, heated debates over nothing. They are the opposite of pointless. I feel the current/younger generation has completely lost the ability to have civilized, structured debates. If you can't solve a disagreement by a google search people freak out pretty quickly. And then we need safe spaces left and right and everybody is a victim and it's all society's fault. Those pointless debates over trifles serve a purpose, like kitten playfully fighting all day. > Only teenagers, and I now presume, older people, fuddle with their phones instead of talking to the person in front of them. Mostly teenagers yes, but them being the next generation of adults I doubt they'll just stop once they're into their twens. It'll just become the norm.
krageon 8y ago
> Email across the planet has been around since day one. It has been present around the globe for ages, if you could find an internet cafe on holiday. Reading email on your phone also needs a smartphone. > Mass transit has had posted schedules for many years. It is nice to see an updated one with up to the minute tracking but it wasn’t that inconvenient either. You must be one of the blessed multitudes that live in a country with a public transport system that works well. If you have frequent, long-term delays it is fairly essential for your sanity to be able to know which routes are not currently completely fucked.
- gambiting 8y ago
  >>Reading email on your phone also needs a smartphone. Nokia 6310 could both read and send emails, and I'm sure the functionality arrived slightly earlier too. >>second point I mean, if I'm in some 3rd world country without a reliable public transport system, then I'm not sure how internet access or a smartphone for that matter helps at all. In my experience in those places the bus/train just turns up when it does, no website would help you here.
  - krageon 8y ago
    I didn't know a 6310 could read and send email, thank you. I stopped having Nokia phones after the 3310i (which I did love dearly). There are numerous first world countries that have unreliable public transport. This is the US and also in the EU, I can't imagine you've never encountered what I mean unless you don't travel very much (there is nothing wrong with that, but then why do you discuss it like this). Sure in the situations that you talk about a smartphone would not matter, but in the ones I talk about (and that I actually meant originally) a smartphone will tell you why there is a delay (suddenly, generally) and what you can do to mitigate it. Something no PA system will tell you with any amount of reliability.
    - mantas 8y ago
      I live in EU, but in not-so-reliable public transit country. Outside of major towns, smart phone won't help you much to get most accurate time table. Paper timetable in the station is the only source of true information. You may find multiple contradicting timetables on the web and just hope they haven't been changed since then. Nobody cares to post emergency updates on the web. Sticker in the station it is. GPS live tracking is non existent. We do have live tracking for public transit in 2 (maybe 3?) major towns. But that came before the era of smartphones - it was displayed in displays in stops. It's kinda cool to see your bus stuck in traffic one stop from you :)
systemtest 8y ago
If my train has a delay or doesn't run at all, I need to know a detour quickly. Sometimes you need to decide within the minute to take another line. Otherwise I have to wait 30 minutes for the next train, if that one even runs. And I need to inform the person that I'm meeting with that I will arrive later (if I didn't have slack in my transit time).
- dancek 8y ago
  Smartphones make it easier to optimize your transit lines on the fly, sure (yet I'll note the practice existed before smartphones). But there are different philosophies to traveling: some leave at the last possible minutes and ponder the optimal route choice while running to the bus stop. Others aim to be fifteen minutes early, stroll leisurely, watch the scenery and get lost in their thoughts. I suspect someone who likes a dumbphone to be the latter type.
  - Retric 8y ago
    Being a different type may change the frequency of each situation, but stuff happens so anytime can be in these situations. Really having a smartphone does not mean you need to use it for much. IMO, the jump to cellphone vs not having one is a bigger downside as someone can call ar any time interrupting your thoughts. But even you can just turn them off, while still benefiting in an emergency.
cortic 8y ago
>millions of man years wasted streaming mind numbing video. ..millions of man years wasted waiting. >zoning out of the real world people around you to doodle on your phone that’s sad. ..humoring pointless gossip so people will like you, that's sad. My point is that these seem very subjective and judgmental.
- soziawa 8y ago
  I mean there were books before there were phones. The point is that phones have added little value.
  - Ntrails 8y ago
    There were iPods before there were smartphones, and that completely revolutionised my listening habits. I don't stream music or listen to podcasts so that need was already a solved problem for me. Except. Now I only carry one device. vOv
  - lolsal 8y ago
    > The point is that phones have added little value. ... to you. My phone doesn't always have to be solving a problem or completing a task. The other day I was waiting for something and happened to look up the weather. I ended up going down a rabbit hole and re-discovering https://earth.nullschool.net https://earth.nullschool.net - it was fascinating! It enriched my life, to no particular end. That sort of stuff happens all the time and immensely valuable to me.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  Which is why using these ‘arguments’ makes you appear like an old fart. Get off my lawn! Kids these days!
- posting2fast 8y ago
  "waiting" isn't an actual action. You either read something, or think, or look around while thinking, and so on, but nobody just "waits". Being aware is an action. Thinking is an action. If people around you gossip, tell them that gossip is lame and shift the conversation. And what does it even mean to say something is subjective? Contrary to what? And what does judgemental mean? That you can be whatever you want, and think of yourself however you want, but others may not see you how they see you? What's wrong with judgement?
jvsonica 8y ago
i feel like you missed the major point there. in every other point you talked about, you actually mention the major advantage of smartphones which is convenience. everything smartphones can do was already being done, and of course communication has been around since "day one". smartphones enable you to channel a lot of your time to other things instead of "having to download podcasts in advance" or "check posted transit schedules".
poisonarena 8y ago
My 23 year old girlfriend lives in Japan, she is not reading hackernews. If I told her that we can't talk on whatsapp or LINE anymore because I want to get a flip phone because 'the good old day', and we need to switch to email, I don't think she would be very enthusiastic about the next 2.5 months I am away.
- inawarminister 8y ago
  You can use LINE in your desktop without a smartphone though I agree about WhatsApp issue.
iforgotpassword 8y ago
May I add: >> I can communicate with my fiancee even when she's in another country (international sms = fail). > It facilitates instant communications. Email across the planet has been around since day one. Do you even need instant communication in that case? It's not like you're going to have a quick unexpected meetup or some "hey I'm quite busy can you go get the kids?" Not to mention time zone issues. >> When I'm on the train I can do something meaningful to me. People didn't die of boredom before. Read a book, magazine, work on something on your laptop if you must. Also people seem to lose the ability to just take a short timeout from everything, just to think about your life for a bit, remember some good old times with friends or family you might have lost, and so on. >> When I'm not on the train, I can know when it's actually going to arrive so I can do something fun instead of waiting on the platform. There will we information displayed at the platform and inside the station. Plus announcements on the speaker system, which are faster, more accurate, and I don't have to pull out my phone. Fun fact: at least in Germany, it's not that the train company is obliged to adhere to the prognosed delay. So if your smartphone tells you the train is an hour late and you decide to visit the nearest paintball establishment for an hour you might find yourself missing the train since it only arrived 45 minutes late in the end.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- lolsal 8y ago
  > Do you even need instant communication in that case? It's not like you're going to have a quick unexpected meetup or some "hey I'm quite busy can you go get the kids?" Not to mention time zone issues. "help, I'm being detained in Paris!" "I was mugged and need a passport!" "My plane was late so I missed my connecting flight, so I am spending another night in Berlin." etc. >People didn't die of boredom before. Read a book, magazine, work on something on your laptop if you must. Also people seem to lose the ability to just take a short timeout from everything, just to think about your life for a bit, remember some good old times with friends or family you might have lost, and so on. I actually agree with you totally here, but a counterpoint would be that I can get mundane stuff done while doing mundane stuff (riding a bus, taxi, etc.) so that when I get home I get more family time instead of "not now, I have to see why Comcast/Verizon/Etc. screwed up our bill again."
yters 8y ago
It's also nice sitting in silence with only my thoughts, watching the world go by.
criddell 8y ago
You might not be a Luddite, but you are being very dismissive. The convenience and opportunity aspects of having an always connected computer in your pocket might not appeal to you, but I can assure you that it's a huge deal for the rest of us. You counterpoints all seem to distill down to some variation of being opposed to people having options or embracing convenience.
nicky0 8y ago
With you on most points. As someone who has gone back to a dumb phone, the only thing I really miss is having a high quality camera with me.
dewey 8y ago
Being in a very long distance relationship for a few years now I can be confident in saying that email would not be a great replacement. If you haven’t been in the situation it’s easy to say the opposite but being able to talk in real time is incredibly helpful in making the distance disappear. FaceTime / video calls always available at your fingertips while you are waiting somewhere is also something I wouldn’t want to miss.

by koolba 8y ago

mooreds 8y ago

What do you mean by "peak photo"?

WalterSear 8y ago
They mean the Photomeggadon. The Photocalypse. The Big Kodak Moment. IMNSHO, the parent is simply behaving reactively to the threat of new paradigms. Email does not convey the emotion of a phone call, let alone a video call. Easy access to information fosters discussion - by ending pointless, heated debates over nothing. Only teenagers, and I now presume, older people, fuddle with their phones instead of talking to the person in front of them.
- skorbenko 8y ago
  As a Gen Z-er, email for me is an opportunity to write long letters, mulling over every word to convey the emotion just right. However, if I am with someone at the present moment, all of my attention is on him/her.
- PokemonNoGo 8y ago
  >Photomeggadon One hit on google and that's you! Nice!
  - eequah9L 8y ago
    That's just because Google doesn't index Library of Babel! https://libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cgi?fsgju,xzpeiboivi.ul69 https://libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cgi?fsgju,xzpeiboivi.ul...
- true_religion 8y ago
  Emails are a replacement for letter writing, not a replacement for phone calls. When they seemingly replace a phone call, its usually because the institution would have liked to use only letter writing but couldn't for some non-technical reason. Like a company processing refunds and cancelations by phone in order to have the opportunity to convince clients not to cancel (i.e. non-technical reason), now uses email or chat systems to accomplish the same thing.
- fps_doug 8y ago
  > Email does not convey the emotion of a phone call, let alone a video call. Certainly does not, and it's a nice bonus, but when on earth do people use video calls? Since they are even better at conveying emotions, by your logic everybody carrying a smartphone should be making video calls at all times. But it's the contrary, people even prefer texting on Whatsapp over phone calls or even voice messages. > Easy access to information fosters discussion - by ending pointless, heated debates over nothing. They are the opposite of pointless. I feel the current/younger generation has completely lost the ability to have civilized, structured debates. If you can't solve a disagreement by a google search people freak out pretty quickly. And then we need safe spaces left and right and everybody is a victim and it's all society's fault. Those pointless debates over trifles serve a purpose, like kitten playfully fighting all day. > Only teenagers, and I now presume, older people, fuddle with their phones instead of talking to the person in front of them. Mostly teenagers yes, but them being the next generation of adults I doubt they'll just stop once they're into their twens. It'll just become the norm.

krageon 8y ago

> Email across the planet has been around since day one. It has been present around the globe for ages, if you could find an internet cafe on holiday. Reading email on your phone also needs a smartphone. > Mass transit has had posted schedules for many years. It is nice to see an updated one with up to the minute tracking but it wasn’t that inconvenient either. You must be one of the blessed multitudes that live in a country with a public transport system that works well. If you have frequent, long-term delays it is fairly essential for your sanity to be able to know which routes are not currently completely fucked.

gambiting 8y ago
>>Reading email on your phone also needs a smartphone. Nokia 6310 could both read and send emails, and I'm sure the functionality arrived slightly earlier too. >>second point I mean, if I'm in some 3rd world country without a reliable public transport system, then I'm not sure how internet access or a smartphone for that matter helps at all. In my experience in those places the bus/train just turns up when it does, no website would help you here.
- krageon 8y ago
  I didn't know a 6310 could read and send email, thank you. I stopped having Nokia phones after the 3310i (which I did love dearly). There are numerous first world countries that have unreliable public transport. This is the US and also in the EU, I can't imagine you've never encountered what I mean unless you don't travel very much (there is nothing wrong with that, but then why do you discuss it like this). Sure in the situations that you talk about a smartphone would not matter, but in the ones I talk about (and that I actually meant originally) a smartphone will tell you why there is a delay (suddenly, generally) and what you can do to mitigate it. Something no PA system will tell you with any amount of reliability.
  - mantas 8y ago
    I live in EU, but in not-so-reliable public transit country. Outside of major towns, smart phone won't help you much to get most accurate time table. Paper timetable in the station is the only source of true information. You may find multiple contradicting timetables on the web and just hope they haven't been changed since then. Nobody cares to post emergency updates on the web. Sticker in the station it is. GPS live tracking is non existent. We do have live tracking for public transit in 2 (maybe 3?) major towns. But that came before the era of smartphones - it was displayed in displays in stops. It's kinda cool to see your bus stuck in traffic one stop from you :)

systemtest 8y ago

If my train has a delay or doesn't run at all, I need to know a detour quickly. Sometimes you need to decide within the minute to take another line. Otherwise I have to wait 30 minutes for the next train, if that one even runs. And I need to inform the person that I'm meeting with that I will arrive later (if I didn't have slack in my transit time).

dancek 8y ago
Smartphones make it easier to optimize your transit lines on the fly, sure (yet I'll note the practice existed before smartphones). But there are different philosophies to traveling: some leave at the last possible minutes and ponder the optimal route choice while running to the bus stop. Others aim to be fifteen minutes early, stroll leisurely, watch the scenery and get lost in their thoughts. I suspect someone who likes a dumbphone to be the latter type.
- Retric 8y ago
  Being a different type may change the frequency of each situation, but stuff happens so anytime can be in these situations. Really having a smartphone does not mean you need to use it for much. IMO, the jump to cellphone vs not having one is a bigger downside as someone can call ar any time interrupting your thoughts. But even you can just turn them off, while still benefiting in an emergency.

cortic 8y ago

>millions of man years wasted streaming mind numbing video. ..millions of man years wasted waiting. >zoning out of the real world people around you to doodle on your phone that’s sad. ..humoring pointless gossip so people will like you, that's sad. My point is that these seem very subjective and judgmental.

soziawa 8y ago
I mean there were books before there were phones. The point is that phones have added little value.
- Ntrails 8y ago
  There were iPods before there were smartphones, and that completely revolutionised my listening habits. I don't stream music or listen to podcasts so that need was already a solved problem for me. Except. Now I only carry one device. vOv
- lolsal 8y ago
  > The point is that phones have added little value. ... to you. My phone doesn't always have to be solving a problem or completing a task. The other day I was waiting for something and happened to look up the weather. I ended up going down a rabbit hole and re-discovering https://earth.nullschool.net https://earth.nullschool.net - it was fascinating! It enriched my life, to no particular end. That sort of stuff happens all the time and immensely valuable to me.
tinus_hn 8y ago
Which is why using these ‘arguments’ makes you appear like an old fart. Get off my lawn! Kids these days!
posting2fast 8y ago
"waiting" isn't an actual action. You either read something, or think, or look around while thinking, and so on, but nobody just "waits". Being aware is an action. Thinking is an action. If people around you gossip, tell them that gossip is lame and shift the conversation. And what does it even mean to say something is subjective? Contrary to what? And what does judgemental mean? That you can be whatever you want, and think of yourself however you want, but others may not see you how they see you? What's wrong with judgement?

jvsonica 8y ago

i feel like you missed the major point there. in every other point you talked about, you actually mention the major advantage of smartphones which is convenience. everything smartphones can do was already being done, and of course communication has been around since "day one". smartphones enable you to channel a lot of your time to other things instead of "having to download podcasts in advance" or "check posted transit schedules".

poisonarena 8y ago

My 23 year old girlfriend lives in Japan, she is not reading hackernews. If I told her that we can't talk on whatsapp or LINE anymore because I want to get a flip phone because 'the good old day', and we need to switch to email, I don't think she would be very enthusiastic about the next 2.5 months I am away.

inawarminister 8y ago
You can use LINE in your desktop without a smartphone though I agree about WhatsApp issue.

iforgotpassword 8y ago

May I add: >> I can communicate with my fiancee even when she's in another country (international sms = fail). > It facilitates instant communications. Email across the planet has been around since day one. Do you even need instant communication in that case? It's not like you're going to have a quick unexpected meetup or some "hey I'm quite busy can you go get the kids?" Not to mention time zone issues. >> When I'm on the train I can do something meaningful to me. People didn't die of boredom before. Read a book, magazine, work on something on your laptop if you must. Also people seem to lose the ability to just take a short timeout from everything, just to think about your life for a bit, remember some good old times with friends or family you might have lost, and so on. >> When I'm not on the train, I can know when it's actually going to arrive so I can do something fun instead of waiting on the platform. There will we information displayed at the platform and inside the station. Plus announcements on the speaker system, which are faster, more accurate, and I don't have to pull out my phone. Fun fact: at least in Germany, it's not that the train company is obliged to adhere to the prognosed delay. So if your smartphone tells you the train is an hour late and you decide to visit the nearest paintball establishment for an hour you might find yourself missing the train since it only arrived 45 minutes late in the end.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lolsal 8y ago
> Do you even need instant communication in that case? It's not like you're going to have a quick unexpected meetup or some "hey I'm quite busy can you go get the kids?" Not to mention time zone issues. "help, I'm being detained in Paris!" "I was mugged and need a passport!" "My plane was late so I missed my connecting flight, so I am spending another night in Berlin." etc. >People didn't die of boredom before. Read a book, magazine, work on something on your laptop if you must. Also people seem to lose the ability to just take a short timeout from everything, just to think about your life for a bit, remember some good old times with friends or family you might have lost, and so on. I actually agree with you totally here, but a counterpoint would be that I can get mundane stuff done while doing mundane stuff (riding a bus, taxi, etc.) so that when I get home I get more family time instead of "not now, I have to see why Comcast/Verizon/Etc. screwed up our bill again."

yters 8y ago

It's also nice sitting in silence with only my thoughts, watching the world go by.

criddell 8y ago

You might not be a Luddite, but you are being very dismissive. The convenience and opportunity aspects of having an always connected computer in your pocket might not appeal to you, but I can assure you that it's a huge deal for the rest of us. You counterpoints all seem to distill down to some variation of being opposed to people having options or embracing convenience.

nicky0 8y ago

With you on most points. As someone who has gone back to a dumb phone, the only thing I really miss is having a high quality camera with me.

dewey 8y ago

Being in a very long distance relationship for a few years now I can be confident in saying that email would not be a great replacement. If you haven’t been in the situation it’s easy to say the opposite but being able to talk in real time is incredibly helpful in making the distance disappear. FaceTime / video calls always available at your fingertips while you are waiting somewhere is also something I wouldn’t want to miss.