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As it turns out, poverty doesn't cause crime. It's relative poverty that causes crime. Basically, if people are low down enough on the dominance hierarchy, they

As it turns out, poverty doesn't cause crime. It's relative poverty that causes crime. Basically, if people are low down enough on the dominance hierarchy, they feel like they have no hope of getting anywhere, then why shouldn't they start acting up? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3XYHPAwBzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3XYHPAwBzE (On the other hand, in societies where everyone is poor, there can be peace.)

perfmode 8y ago
well, wealth creates a market opportunity. when everyone is poor, there is no market opportunity.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Obviously, we don't want everyone to stay poor. At the same time, we don't want certain people to be so low on the dominance hierarchy, that they think violence is their only alternative.
  - perfmode 8y ago
    i don’t believe it has to do with position on a dominance hierarchy. i think it has more to do with dignity.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      i don’t believe it has to do with position on a dominance hierarchy. i think it has more to do with dignity. Those two are the same thing. Dignity == not being at the absolute bottom end of a dominance hierarchy. Since human society is very complex, there are many somewhat orthogonal dominance hierarchies. That revered old statesman in your esoteric music fandom might be a school janitor somewhere. Those local-star music scene musicians might get ushered into a billionaire's party through the back door of the kitchen, then be strictly warned not to touch any of the food.
      - perfmode 8y ago
        being treated with dignity hasn’t nothing to do with one’s social status. to be treated with dignity would be for the billionaire’s staff to escort the low status individuals with grace and provide food for them in a way that affords them respect while satisfying whatever other constraint which precludes the billionaire from involving these persons in the main event. to risk ruining my point by being petty: sounds like a billionaire with no class.
        felix_nagaand 8y ago
        Low social status has inherent indignities.
WalterBright 8y ago
Or maybe it's the other way around - crime causes poverty.
- pimmen 8y ago
  Crime can absolutely produce a bad feedback loop to a community, but I would love to see more research on what causes what. We can see that countries that become a lot richer and keeps wealth inequality under control has a connection with drops in crime, like in Australia for example. However, I don't think drops in crime caused the resource boom there and I don't think Detroit's crime rate caused the Japanese and German economies to become more advanced and outperform the American auto industry.
adventured 8y ago
If you're in a society where everyone is poor, there is not peace, there's extreme violence being applied by a government that is responsible for everyone being poor (it's not just a subtle thing for everyone to be poor, that requires an incredible amount of persistent violence and rights denial by a central authority with overwhelming power). You're just swapping one type of violence out for another.
- pas 8y ago
  There's no need for a central power for that. Tribes constantly warred with each other, because they saw that as a good way to get resources. Of course, during the middle ages it was feudalism, which was not centralized at all, it was stratified. Classes, classes, classes. Haves and have not-s. The haves of course arranged things in a way to keep what they have, so they come up with rights for themselves, which were very much not egalitarian ones. And of course there's the real centralized one-party autocratic setup, where instead of noble houses openly competing with each other, people just play the subtle game of extort those who are under you, which makes inequality even worse.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  If you're in a society where everyone is poor, there is not peace, there's extreme violence being applied by a government that is responsible for everyone being poor This is a relatively recent phenomenon. To have oppression, there has to be enough of a surplus for a ruling class to extract. For many 10's of thousands of years, our ancestors didn't have the means to have a surplus. Also, we have many examples of local societies which are egalitarian, but embedded within a larger, distant feudal hierarchy. In some of those cases, there can be very little violence directed locally, though in other cases, people can be so low in society, again, their only hope for advancement is violence. Where there have been increases in the general standard of living, it has been through the adoption of new technology and the increase of trade.

perfmode 8y ago

well, wealth creates a market opportunity. when everyone is poor, there is no market opportunity.

stcredzero 8y ago
Obviously, we don't want everyone to stay poor. At the same time, we don't want certain people to be so low on the dominance hierarchy, that they think violence is their only alternative.
- perfmode 8y ago
  i don’t believe it has to do with position on a dominance hierarchy. i think it has more to do with dignity.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    i don’t believe it has to do with position on a dominance hierarchy. i think it has more to do with dignity. Those two are the same thing. Dignity == not being at the absolute bottom end of a dominance hierarchy. Since human society is very complex, there are many somewhat orthogonal dominance hierarchies. That revered old statesman in your esoteric music fandom might be a school janitor somewhere. Those local-star music scene musicians might get ushered into a billionaire's party through the back door of the kitchen, then be strictly warned not to touch any of the food.
    - perfmode 8y ago
      being treated with dignity hasn’t nothing to do with one’s social status. to be treated with dignity would be for the billionaire’s staff to escort the low status individuals with grace and provide food for them in a way that affords them respect while satisfying whatever other constraint which precludes the billionaire from involving these persons in the main event. to risk ruining my point by being petty: sounds like a billionaire with no class.
      - felix_nagaand 8y ago
        Low social status has inherent indignities.

WalterBright 8y ago

Or maybe it's the other way around - crime causes poverty.

pimmen 8y ago
Crime can absolutely produce a bad feedback loop to a community, but I would love to see more research on what causes what. We can see that countries that become a lot richer and keeps wealth inequality under control has a connection with drops in crime, like in Australia for example. However, I don't think drops in crime caused the resource boom there and I don't think Detroit's crime rate caused the Japanese and German economies to become more advanced and outperform the American auto industry.

adventured 8y ago

If you're in a society where everyone is poor, there is not peace, there's extreme violence being applied by a government that is responsible for everyone being poor (it's not just a subtle thing for everyone to be poor, that requires an incredible amount of persistent violence and rights denial by a central authority with overwhelming power). You're just swapping one type of violence out for another.

pas 8y ago
There's no need for a central power for that. Tribes constantly warred with each other, because they saw that as a good way to get resources. Of course, during the middle ages it was feudalism, which was not centralized at all, it was stratified. Classes, classes, classes. Haves and have not-s. The haves of course arranged things in a way to keep what they have, so they come up with rights for themselves, which were very much not egalitarian ones. And of course there's the real centralized one-party autocratic setup, where instead of noble houses openly competing with each other, people just play the subtle game of extort those who are under you, which makes inequality even worse.
stcredzero 8y ago
If you're in a society where everyone is poor, there is not peace, there's extreme violence being applied by a government that is responsible for everyone being poor This is a relatively recent phenomenon. To have oppression, there has to be enough of a surplus for a ruling class to extract. For many 10's of thousands of years, our ancestors didn't have the means to have a surplus. Also, we have many examples of local societies which are egalitarian, but embedded within a larger, distant feudal hierarchy. In some of those cases, there can be very little violence directed locally, though in other cases, people can be so low in society, again, their only hope for advancement is violence. Where there have been increases in the general standard of living, it has been through the adoption of new technology and the increase of trade.