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Yeah, the Communist party in Albania had a great way to deal with 'community involvment' Every first Sunday of the month (Sundays were the only days people had

Yeah, the Communist party in Albania had a great way to deal with 'community involvment' Every first Sunday of the month (Sundays were the only days people had off, as Saturdays were actually work day), people were required to get out, and help clean out the neighborhood in 'cleaning actions'. If you didn't do it, you'd be reprimanded, and if you didn't comply you'd be sent into re-education class, on how community involvement was crucial to a good communist society. If you still didn't comply then you'd be sent off to some 'action' in some more remote area. Anyways, this is not communist 'community involvement' level yet, but the government should have no say on a person's personal private time.

jancsika 8y ago
> Anyways, this is not communist 'community involvement' level yet, but the government should have no say on a person's personal private time. Zoning itself is quite a loud say from the government about what someone may do in their personal private time in their personal private property. For example, you can't run a bakery in your personal private time in an area zoned only for residential use. Do you think zoning should not be legal?
- jessaustin 8y ago
  If zoning weren't legal, lots of things would change. Mostly for the better, but perhaps not entirely. There would be a lot more pedestrians and cyclists, and a lot fewer automobiles, in most urban areas. On the other hand you might live closer to a tavern. I lived in Denver for a few years; it's not so bad to live close to taverns.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    There's actually a real example of this, and it basically shows the opposite of your point. The city of Houston has no zoning laws - you are free to build wherever, whatever, occupied by whomever, subject only to market forces and contracts. The result has been a sprawling, car-driven metropolis where to get anywhere, you need at least a 20-minute drive in a car. My sister lives in a development of over 10,000 people, all single-family homes spread over several square miles of drained floodplain. There is basically zero commercial or office space in the development; to get to the nearest restaurant or supermarket, she needs to get on the highway. Her husband has roughly an hour commute to work; she had a 45-minute commute when she was working. The highways are so congested at rush hour that you use privately-developed toll roads to get across town if you have the money. There's also various absurdities like people being sold homes inside flood-control reservoirs, or sex shops next to preschools, or residential homes next to chemical storage tanks. On the plus side, housing is really cheap - the same house that would go for $1.5M in my neighborhood in Sunnyvale (a 3BR2BA on 1/4 acre) goes for under $200K in Houston. My sister lives in a gorgeous 5BR4BA waterfront property that cost < $600K; you literally can't find anything for that price where I live.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      What's the problem with a sex shop near a preschool? Or even a residential home next to chemical storage - it should be perfectly safe to live next to those.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Houston has some problems. Would zoning have prevented the subdivisions inside the reservoirs? When they interviewed the county officials who should have enforced the admittedly rudimentary requirements Houston does have, they claimed not to know about the reservoirs. I sort of blame CoE, for not buying up the development rights for the farmland they condemned to flood. As usual with CoE (or USA military in general?), everyone would have been better off if they hadn't done anything. Most of what you write here seems to confirm my point, with the exception of the zero commercial in your sister's development. Should we assume there is some sort of contract or HOA enforcing that? If so, I guess that isn't zoning, but it acts in largely the same way, doesn't it? Also, look at any other metropolis in Houston's timezone, and you'll find identical suburban situations. So maybe we can't blame the lack of zoning here? As I'm sure you're aware, in many situations zoning has been blamed for unmixed development. It's possible that Houston might do some sort of BRT someday, which would help a great deal with commute times. BRT could even use some of those horrible un-American private roads. Already, the commutes you describe are better than those in lots of cities with extensive public transit.
    - neilparikh 8y ago
      Houston actually does have zoning laws, but they're called something different: parking minimums [0]. While there might not be any restrictions on what you can build, the fact that you need a certain amount of parking will naturally lead to certain types of housing being built. [0]: https://empowertexans.com/around-texas/the-burden-of-parking-minimums/ https://empowertexans.com/around-texas/the-burden-of-parking...
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  An absolutely enormous number of problems in this country can be pointed at zoning, especially NIMBY zoning. We would be far better off wiping it all and replacing it with something like Japan's system, with residential and commercial combined into a handful of categories that are only different in the maximum size of xyz. And even the smaller zones allow small apartment buildings.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
This isn't the government having a say in what a person does in their private time. To fit the allegory of Communist Albania that you gave, the government would be have to be forcing tech workers to eat a minimum quantity of food at local restaurants every week. That's not what they are doing. You are still free to bring sandwiches from home, or order Soylent online and get it sent direct to your office, bypassing the local economy entirely.

jancsika 8y ago

> Anyways, this is not communist 'community involvement' level yet, but the government should have no say on a person's personal private time. Zoning itself is quite a loud say from the government about what someone may do in their personal private time in their personal private property. For example, you can't run a bakery in your personal private time in an area zoned only for residential use. Do you think zoning should not be legal?

jessaustin 8y ago
If zoning weren't legal, lots of things would change. Mostly for the better, but perhaps not entirely. There would be a lot more pedestrians and cyclists, and a lot fewer automobiles, in most urban areas. On the other hand you might live closer to a tavern. I lived in Denver for a few years; it's not so bad to live close to taverns.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  There's actually a real example of this, and it basically shows the opposite of your point. The city of Houston has no zoning laws - you are free to build wherever, whatever, occupied by whomever, subject only to market forces and contracts. The result has been a sprawling, car-driven metropolis where to get anywhere, you need at least a 20-minute drive in a car. My sister lives in a development of over 10,000 people, all single-family homes spread over several square miles of drained floodplain. There is basically zero commercial or office space in the development; to get to the nearest restaurant or supermarket, she needs to get on the highway. Her husband has roughly an hour commute to work; she had a 45-minute commute when she was working. The highways are so congested at rush hour that you use privately-developed toll roads to get across town if you have the money. There's also various absurdities like people being sold homes inside flood-control reservoirs, or sex shops next to preschools, or residential homes next to chemical storage tanks. On the plus side, housing is really cheap - the same house that would go for $1.5M in my neighborhood in Sunnyvale (a 3BR2BA on 1/4 acre) goes for under $200K in Houston. My sister lives in a gorgeous 5BR4BA waterfront property that cost < $600K; you literally can't find anything for that price where I live.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    What's the problem with a sex shop near a preschool? Or even a residential home next to chemical storage - it should be perfectly safe to live next to those.
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Houston has some problems. Would zoning have prevented the subdivisions inside the reservoirs? When they interviewed the county officials who should have enforced the admittedly rudimentary requirements Houston does have, they claimed not to know about the reservoirs. I sort of blame CoE, for not buying up the development rights for the farmland they condemned to flood. As usual with CoE (or USA military in general?), everyone would have been better off if they hadn't done anything. Most of what you write here seems to confirm my point, with the exception of the zero commercial in your sister's development. Should we assume there is some sort of contract or HOA enforcing that? If so, I guess that isn't zoning, but it acts in largely the same way, doesn't it? Also, look at any other metropolis in Houston's timezone, and you'll find identical suburban situations. So maybe we can't blame the lack of zoning here? As I'm sure you're aware, in many situations zoning has been blamed for unmixed development. It's possible that Houston might do some sort of BRT someday, which would help a great deal with commute times. BRT could even use some of those horrible un-American private roads. Already, the commutes you describe are better than those in lots of cities with extensive public transit.
  - neilparikh 8y ago
    Houston actually does have zoning laws, but they're called something different: parking minimums [0]. While there might not be any restrictions on what you can build, the fact that you need a certain amount of parking will naturally lead to certain types of housing being built. [0]: https://empowertexans.com/around-texas/the-burden-of-parking-minimums/ https://empowertexans.com/around-texas/the-burden-of-parking...
Dylan16807 8y ago
An absolutely enormous number of problems in this country can be pointed at zoning, especially NIMBY zoning. We would be far better off wiping it all and replacing it with something like Japan's system, with residential and commercial combined into a handful of categories that are only different in the maximum size of xyz. And even the smaller zones allow small apartment buildings.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

This isn't the government having a say in what a person does in their private time. To fit the allegory of Communist Albania that you gave, the government would be have to be forcing tech workers to eat a minimum quantity of food at local restaurants every week. That's not what they are doing. You are still free to bring sandwiches from home, or order Soylent online and get it sent direct to your office, bypassing the local economy entirely.