7 ms·

Where do people still care about pushing the boundary, exploring new paradigms, and building shit? I'm so sick of hearing about this mythical "silicon valley of

Where do people still care about pushing the boundary, exploring new paradigms, and building shit? I'm so sick of hearing about this mythical "silicon valley of yore" where there was community, and fellowship, and a desire to improve humanity. I came here looking for that and all I see is rent-seeking mega corps bent on scaling their surveillance platforms. Is that dream still alive somewhere?

maxxxxx 8y ago
Totally agree. General magic tried to do something really innovative and failed. I think they deserve a lot of respect for trying something hard.
- jackhack 8y ago
  There used to be plenty of room for innovation. General Magic made a PDA to compete with the Apple Newton Messagepad (the first "Personal Digital Assistant"). The Newton had a lovely pen-based user interface, and with the second revision, a handwriting recognition engine that worked perfectly. But sadly the early version failed to meet expectations (google "Beat Up Martin!") and Steve Jobs killed the project when he came back to Apple. So both the General Magic and the Newton Messagepad sadly lost out to the inferior-in-nearly-aspect Palm. (curiously, Palm got its start writing an alternative alphabet interpreter for the Newton. So if not for Newton, Palm would have never been born, and would not have defeated Apple.)
  - walrus01 8y ago
    The Newton also failed because it had a much shorter battery life than the Palm devices and was a great deal larger. And was a lot more expensive. Palm devices shipped out of the box with a docking station and ability to sync calendar/data with almost any Windows 98 or NT4/2000 PC.
    - jandrese 8y ago
      Also, Graffiti was fast once you got it down. Newton's handwriting recognition, even when it wasn't a total disaster, was kind of laborious. But mostly it was the price tag. Palm Pilots really did almost everything a Newton could do at half the price or less. The Outlook sync feature made sure they had a place in business as well.
      - walrus01 8y ago
        I actually never used a graffiti palmos device as my personal every day pda. Bought a handspring Treo 180 with the physical keyboard. When it was new, it was one of the best wireless pda available... I still miss that keyboard.
  - jpadkins 8y ago
    > inferior-in-nearly-aspect Palm worse is better https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html x86 was worse than RISC, Linux worse than BSD, Windows worse than MacOS, etc Palm got the the things right that mattered to adoption (price, simplicity, data syncing) even if you think Newtown was technically superior. Focusing on technical superiority is a common trap.
    - LocutusOfBorges 8y ago
      For anyone less than enthused by that webpage's anti-HN redirect to a photograph of a testicle in an egg cup, here's an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180322163944/https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180322163944/https://www.jwz.o...
bdamm 8y ago
You mean people who "make" stuff? I think the dream is still alive and all you have to do is start doing it. The way the Internet is these days the ability to link up with other people making stuff is pretty easy. My only problem is that I haven't figured out how to structure my own life to do more of it, but I think that's a local and temporary personal problem more than a system of repression.
ukulele 8y ago
I work out of my garage in Sunnyvale, building a platform trying to make the web better. I eat lunch regularly with friends who do similar things, and I've been a part of several companies (via VC work) that have desired to improve humanity and are doing it. There are people out there doing what you've described, but it doesn't (and never did) get headlines because most headlines are paid for.
- ibn_ibid 8y ago
  What are you building?
- jxub 8y ago
  Could you expand on the platform part please? I'm sure many people here would be interested and exposure on HN is free, so why not? ;)
  - ukulele 8y ago
    Yes I can do that -- it's a platform for building software modules that can be added to any website or web app. Right now it does most of the popular build steps automatically (Babel, SCSS, Handlebars) so developers can just focus on actual code. We have an open source library of ready-to-use modules that can be forked/tweaked or used as is. It's called Anymod https://anymod.com https://anymod.com. Hoping we can become something useful for developers.
    - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
      Your "how it works"[1] page makes it look a little like a cross between Codepen and Google Tag Manager. Is that a fair characterization of what Mods do? I like the 'shared library' idea, that's something GTM makes actively harder. 1: https://anymod.com/how-it-works https://anymod.com/how-it-works
      - ukulele 8y ago
        The editor is similar to CodePen, with the biggest difference being you can easily add what you've built to any website. I haven't ever used GTM but I think the "make changes without re-deploying" approach is conceptually similar.
Taniwha 8y ago
Those companies are still around, flying under the radar under silly code names like "General magic", remember most of them try and fail. You have to look for them, be in the know (probably because you've worked with one of the early employees and impressed them) or be one of the founders. I lived in the valley for 20 years and only ever worked for startups, only got one job (the first one) that was advertised
walrus01 8y ago
Start-up ISPs doing high speed last mile and middle mile access with self-built infrastructure. It's not sexy cloud based SaaS bullshit. You can't do it all sitting at a desk in a shared office in a WeWork studio. It requires physically going places and doing things at OSI layer 1. But there are still a number of places in the world (and indeed within the US and Canada) that lack real broadband Internet. Or have truly terrible shitty noncompetitive options. It's capital intensive and requires a team encompassing the "full stack" of network engineering skill sets. If you're unhappy with Comcast type huge shitty unethical ISPs, build your own. Make a principled commitment to not "selling out", network neutrality, and high quality attentive customer service and no-nonsense billing. There are plenty of challenges out there if you seek them out.
- icedchai 8y ago
  sounds like less money than SaaS BS. Most SaaS BS doesn't make any, either, but at least investors like it...
  - walrus01 8y ago
    It very much depends, fiber construction can have a very long ROI and be very costly depending on how much of it has to be underground, right-of-way issues, etc.
    - icedchai 8y ago
      How about fixed wireless? I have ISP experience and a decent amount of startup capital. It just seems like potential for a real money pit and massive losses with cable and fios both in the area...
      - walrus01 8y ago
        Fixed wireless should definitely a part of any small/start-up ISP plan. If you're in an area that's solidly served by GPON and ADSL2+/VDSL2 by the ILEC phone company (FIOS), and they're really built the fiber network out a lot, that's hard to compete with. And hard to compete with a solid DOCSIS3 network that reaches everyone. You'd have to find an area on the far outlying reaches of your metro area that is much worse off, where a market need exists.
djrogers 8y ago
Here’s a hint - it’s not in web development. That world was taken over by ad-tech years ago. If you want to find people punching the envelope, it won’t be in last decade’s tech.
rasz 8y ago
Pushing boundaries? seriously? General Magic tried to deliver Microsoft Bob 'on a mobile device'.
adrian_mrd 8y ago
Maybe try a not-for-profit or a social enterprise as many of them are trying earnestly to solve difficult problems (climate change, obesity crisis, opoid addiction, access to clean water, homelessness, better treatment of animals, decreasing electronic waste, etc.), and they are not bound to any particular locale. As Martin Luther King once said: "it's always the right time, to do the right thing", and as some other commentators have stated, many 'good' people are trying to improve our world - it's just that the tech bros often have better PR teams and that all important 'network scale'. Hang in there, the dream is definitely still alive :)
Swizec 8y ago
I work out of my home office on the side trying to help people bridge the gap between programmer and software engineer. Does that count? At the day job I build a tool/platform/thing for high school students to get instant help with math homework. We're out there! We just don't make it to the top of HN anymore.
georgeecollins 8y ago
I would look in robotics, location based entertainment, and wearables.
hkmurakami 8y ago
Willow Garage until very recently.
brianobush 8y ago
I work on building technology (an iOS app) to help people with newly implanted cochlear devices understand and differentiate sounds in speech. There is technology for solving real human problems being developed, but it doesn't take a huge team to create such technology.
Sidnicious 8y ago
The best example I’ve seen recently is Dynamicland, which is building a self-hosting, collaborative computer. Pieces of paper represent programs and UIs, and you can grab a wireless keyboard and place it in front of anything to inspect and modify it with the help of projectors: https://dynamicland.org https://dynamicland.org
forapurpose 8y ago
> all I see is rent-seeking mega corps bent on scaling their surveillance platforms Those always were around. In the days of yore there was IBM using FUD everywhere and trying to monopolize the PC through proprietary technologies, AT&T trying to shut down Unix as free software, Microsoft's monopolistic practices, etc. But at the same time a lot of people worked on free software and much more to make the world a better place, and they succeeded. What the histories leave out, what they can't convey, is the uncertainty of being one person or a small team taking on megacorp, of the experience of trying help a world where most people don't understand the problem and many who do understand still don't care. History can't convey not knowing if the story will end in a wasted career and never even being noticed, much less forgotten, or in being Linus or RMS or Graydon Hoare. That's all just normal in any project of social change. In another domain, IIRC, MLK's popularity was underwater even after the Voting Rights Act passed; can you imagine what he faced when he started - a small group, a politically oppressed minority (thus limiting their ability to get anything done), a barely educated constituency (due to the discrimination), taking on a much larger majority and centuries of Southern (and Northern) tradition.
contingencies 8y ago
Move to China and work with us. A month ago I pitched Tony Fadell of General Magic personally, passed his filter, and got our current raise material through. He didn't invest in the end (we are raising quite a large round) but we remain in touch. He left a good impression, and I believe we did too.

maxxxxx 8y ago

Totally agree. General magic tried to do something really innovative and failed. I think they deserve a lot of respect for trying something hard.

jackhack 8y ago
There used to be plenty of room for innovation. General Magic made a PDA to compete with the Apple Newton Messagepad (the first "Personal Digital Assistant"). The Newton had a lovely pen-based user interface, and with the second revision, a handwriting recognition engine that worked perfectly. But sadly the early version failed to meet expectations (google "Beat Up Martin!") and Steve Jobs killed the project when he came back to Apple. So both the General Magic and the Newton Messagepad sadly lost out to the inferior-in-nearly-aspect Palm. (curiously, Palm got its start writing an alternative alphabet interpreter for the Newton. So if not for Newton, Palm would have never been born, and would not have defeated Apple.)
- walrus01 8y ago
  The Newton also failed because it had a much shorter battery life than the Palm devices and was a great deal larger. And was a lot more expensive. Palm devices shipped out of the box with a docking station and ability to sync calendar/data with almost any Windows 98 or NT4/2000 PC.
  - jandrese 8y ago
    Also, Graffiti was fast once you got it down. Newton's handwriting recognition, even when it wasn't a total disaster, was kind of laborious. But mostly it was the price tag. Palm Pilots really did almost everything a Newton could do at half the price or less. The Outlook sync feature made sure they had a place in business as well.
    - walrus01 8y ago
      I actually never used a graffiti palmos device as my personal every day pda. Bought a handspring Treo 180 with the physical keyboard. When it was new, it was one of the best wireless pda available... I still miss that keyboard.
- jpadkins 8y ago
  > inferior-in-nearly-aspect Palm worse is better https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html x86 was worse than RISC, Linux worse than BSD, Windows worse than MacOS, etc Palm got the the things right that mattered to adoption (price, simplicity, data syncing) even if you think Newtown was technically superior. Focusing on technical superiority is a common trap.
  - LocutusOfBorges 8y ago
    For anyone less than enthused by that webpage's anti-HN redirect to a photograph of a testicle in an egg cup, here's an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180322163944/https://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180322163944/https://www.jwz.o...

bdamm 8y ago

You mean people who "make" stuff? I think the dream is still alive and all you have to do is start doing it. The way the Internet is these days the ability to link up with other people making stuff is pretty easy. My only problem is that I haven't figured out how to structure my own life to do more of it, but I think that's a local and temporary personal problem more than a system of repression.

ukulele 8y ago

I work out of my garage in Sunnyvale, building a platform trying to make the web better. I eat lunch regularly with friends who do similar things, and I've been a part of several companies (via VC work) that have desired to improve humanity and are doing it. There are people out there doing what you've described, but it doesn't (and never did) get headlines because most headlines are paid for.

ibn_ibid 8y ago
What are you building?
jxub 8y ago
Could you expand on the platform part please? I'm sure many people here would be interested and exposure on HN is free, so why not? ;)
- ukulele 8y ago
  Yes I can do that -- it's a platform for building software modules that can be added to any website or web app. Right now it does most of the popular build steps automatically (Babel, SCSS, Handlebars) so developers can just focus on actual code. We have an open source library of ready-to-use modules that can be forked/tweaked or used as is. It's called Anymod https://anymod.com https://anymod.com. Hoping we can become something useful for developers.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    Your "how it works"[1] page makes it look a little like a cross between Codepen and Google Tag Manager. Is that a fair characterization of what Mods do? I like the 'shared library' idea, that's something GTM makes actively harder. 1: https://anymod.com/how-it-works https://anymod.com/how-it-works
    - ukulele 8y ago
      The editor is similar to CodePen, with the biggest difference being you can easily add what you've built to any website. I haven't ever used GTM but I think the "make changes without re-deploying" approach is conceptually similar.

Taniwha 8y ago

Those companies are still around, flying under the radar under silly code names like "General magic", remember most of them try and fail. You have to look for them, be in the know (probably because you've worked with one of the early employees and impressed them) or be one of the founders. I lived in the valley for 20 years and only ever worked for startups, only got one job (the first one) that was advertised

walrus01 8y ago

Start-up ISPs doing high speed last mile and middle mile access with self-built infrastructure. It's not sexy cloud based SaaS bullshit. You can't do it all sitting at a desk in a shared office in a WeWork studio. It requires physically going places and doing things at OSI layer 1. But there are still a number of places in the world (and indeed within the US and Canada) that lack real broadband Internet. Or have truly terrible shitty noncompetitive options. It's capital intensive and requires a team encompassing the "full stack" of network engineering skill sets. If you're unhappy with Comcast type huge shitty unethical ISPs, build your own. Make a principled commitment to not "selling out", network neutrality, and high quality attentive customer service and no-nonsense billing. There are plenty of challenges out there if you seek them out.

icedchai 8y ago
sounds like less money than SaaS BS. Most SaaS BS doesn't make any, either, but at least investors like it...
- walrus01 8y ago
  It very much depends, fiber construction can have a very long ROI and be very costly depending on how much of it has to be underground, right-of-way issues, etc.
  - icedchai 8y ago
    How about fixed wireless? I have ISP experience and a decent amount of startup capital. It just seems like potential for a real money pit and massive losses with cable and fios both in the area...
    - walrus01 8y ago
      Fixed wireless should definitely a part of any small/start-up ISP plan. If you're in an area that's solidly served by GPON and ADSL2+/VDSL2 by the ILEC phone company (FIOS), and they're really built the fiber network out a lot, that's hard to compete with. And hard to compete with a solid DOCSIS3 network that reaches everyone. You'd have to find an area on the far outlying reaches of your metro area that is much worse off, where a market need exists.

djrogers 8y ago

Here’s a hint - it’s not in web development. That world was taken over by ad-tech years ago. If you want to find people punching the envelope, it won’t be in last decade’s tech.

rasz 8y ago

Pushing boundaries? seriously? General Magic tried to deliver Microsoft Bob 'on a mobile device'.

adrian_mrd 8y ago

Maybe try a not-for-profit or a social enterprise as many of them are trying earnestly to solve difficult problems (climate change, obesity crisis, opoid addiction, access to clean water, homelessness, better treatment of animals, decreasing electronic waste, etc.), and they are not bound to any particular locale. As Martin Luther King once said: "it's always the right time, to do the right thing", and as some other commentators have stated, many 'good' people are trying to improve our world - it's just that the tech bros often have better PR teams and that all important 'network scale'. Hang in there, the dream is definitely still alive :)

Swizec 8y ago

I work out of my home office on the side trying to help people bridge the gap between programmer and software engineer. Does that count? At the day job I build a tool/platform/thing for high school students to get instant help with math homework. We're out there! We just don't make it to the top of HN anymore.

georgeecollins 8y ago

I would look in robotics, location based entertainment, and wearables.

hkmurakami 8y ago

Willow Garage until very recently.

brianobush 8y ago

I work on building technology (an iOS app) to help people with newly implanted cochlear devices understand and differentiate sounds in speech. There is technology for solving real human problems being developed, but it doesn't take a huge team to create such technology.

Sidnicious 8y ago

The best example I’ve seen recently is Dynamicland, which is building a self-hosting, collaborative computer. Pieces of paper represent programs and UIs, and you can grab a wireless keyboard and place it in front of anything to inspect and modify it with the help of projectors: https://dynamicland.org https://dynamicland.org

forapurpose 8y ago

> all I see is rent-seeking mega corps bent on scaling their surveillance platforms Those always were around. In the days of yore there was IBM using FUD everywhere and trying to monopolize the PC through proprietary technologies, AT&T trying to shut down Unix as free software, Microsoft's monopolistic practices, etc. But at the same time a lot of people worked on free software and much more to make the world a better place, and they succeeded. What the histories leave out, what they can't convey, is the uncertainty of being one person or a small team taking on megacorp, of the experience of trying help a world where most people don't understand the problem and many who do understand still don't care. History can't convey not knowing if the story will end in a wasted career and never even being noticed, much less forgotten, or in being Linus or RMS or Graydon Hoare. That's all just normal in any project of social change. In another domain, IIRC, MLK's popularity was underwater even after the Voting Rights Act passed; can you imagine what he faced when he started - a small group, a politically oppressed minority (thus limiting their ability to get anything done), a barely educated constituency (due to the discrimination), taking on a much larger majority and centuries of Southern (and Northern) tradition.

contingencies 8y ago

Move to China and work with us. A month ago I pitched Tony Fadell of General Magic personally, passed his filter, and got our current raise material through. He didn't invest in the end (we are raising quite a large round) but we remain in touch. He left a good impression, and I believe we did too.