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Then again, for the 700 billion dollars defense budget you'd get free universal healthcare and higher education for all of the US — AND would still have a few d

Then again, for the 700 billion dollars defense budget you'd get free universal healthcare and higher education for all of the US — AND would still have a few dozen billions to spare on cancer and Mars expeditions... but who in their right mind would want that?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
qaq 8y ago
40% of US GDP is financial services it would be hard to argue that you could preserve that without being dominant military power.
- clarkmoody 8y ago
  I would blame the size of the financial services sector on the Fed and inflationary money. I don't see what military power has to do with it? What's the size of the financial sector of Luxembourg or Switzerland?
  - qaq 8y ago
    Well name 1 other country that cab increase money supply the way FED does yet maintains the status of world's reserve currency? Luxembourg nobody cares on a global scale. Switzerland has extremely competent military and they are def. not in a position to manipulate the currency the way FED does and remain a viable financial center.
    - rsync 8y ago
      "Switzerland has extremely competent military and they are def. not in a position to manipulate the currency the way FED does and remain a viable financial center." Well, actually, since you brought it up ... The SNB has been buying euros, and other currencies (selling swiss francs) since 2011 in an effort to depress its value, which they believe is too high and hurts their exports. Here is a decent summary of the events leading up to their interventions and the current scenario: https://admiralmarkets.com/analytics/traders-blog/price-shock-when-the-swiss-national-bank-unpegged-the-swiss-franc-from-the-euro https://admiralmarkets.com/analytics/traders-blog/price-shoc... In summary, the CHF is viewed by many market participants as a safe-haven, or reserve currency (especially in Europe) and the Swiss National Bank has been acting, unilaterally, for many years to manipulate the CHF downwards in value.
      - qaq 8y ago
        Thats an interesting read I was not aware this was done at this scale. But still hard to remove military from equation.
    - arkis22 8y ago
      Switzerland has been manipulating their currency for almost a decade now. The central bank has been consistently selling reserves to keep their currency low. The USD is the world's reserve currency because we have a balance of being the largest economy with a fair rule of law, lots of real estate, 50 competing states, natural resources, and the manufacturing expertise that means if anything goes super wrong we're the best place to be. Luxembourg and Switzerland also have a history of being tax havens.
- adventured 8y ago
  Financial services - including insurance - are 7.5% of the US economy, not 40%. https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united-states https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united...
  - qaq 8y ago
    Most places put it at around 20% I am def off on the 40% figure. (might be the % of exports?)
mtgx 8y ago
You wouldn't need that much for free healthcare. Remember people already pay a ton for healthcare. You'd just repackage those payments into taxes for free universal healthcare and then the government would have to pay the difference.
- zaroth 8y ago
  This word “free” you keep using.... I’m not sure it means what you think it means?
  - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
    This point you're making is pretty pedantic considering the OP clearly recognizes that funding for universal healthcare comes from somewhere, they say as much themselves.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      I mean, that was kinda the point?
      - joe5150 8y ago
        "Free" as in "free at the point of use" is a well-understood concept
geezerjay 8y ago
You're missing the fact that the US military is in its core a employment and social services program used extensively to create artificial jobs and artificial demand for skilled labour and high-tech products and services. Not to mention the cultural importance that the US military as an institution has on the US, of course.
- freehunter 8y ago
  And those skilled labor and high-tech products and services would transition extraordinarily well to a space-based economy.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    What exactly makes you believe that rocket science is a domain that's easy to transition into?
    - freehunter 8y ago
      Very little about space is rocket science. Cars are really hard to build and it took thousands of years for mankind to build one, but that doesn't mean the person changing your oil has to know how to fabricate one from scratch in his garage. There are thousands of job titles around the auto industry that require zero knowledge of how cars work.
adventured 8y ago
You're underestimating the cost of US healthcare per capita by an extreme amount. Universal healthcare would cost a minimum of $3.6 trillion (that's an ideal scenario where the US gets its per capita spending down to other high spending nations), and a more likely ~$4.5 trillion. Higher education for all would cost at least $600 billion (close to the existing spending for all post secondary institutions annually), more likely $750b+ with the cost expansion that would entail. You obviously can't eliminate all of the US defense budget. That would be wildly irrational and dangerous. Let's say the best you can do is a 2% of GDP expenditure rate, or roughly $400 billion per year. That $300 billion directed at universal healthcare would pay for the healthcare of 20 million people, 6% of the US population.
- yonkshi 8y ago
  Would you please provide some sources on all your numbers? those are some astronomical numbers and are essential in validating your point. Edit: I did some of my own research, UHC take 8~11% GDP in other countries. That would put us around 1.8 trillion (2016 GDP). Much less than $3.5 trillion you claimed. Plus, US is already spending 16% of GDP (~3 trillion) on health care, despite not having universal healthcare. 11% GDP for UHC does not seem like a bad idea to me source: https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm
  - Aloisius 8y ago
    Remember, government spending increases the GDP. You'd have to get closer to $2 trillion to hit 11% if, for some reason, one wanted to use that as a target rather than per-capita spending.
  - mercutio2 8y ago
    Universal health care isn’t magic pixie dust. The way UHC costs less is by paying doctors and nurses less. Negotiating lower pharmaceutical rates and reducing billing costs is nice and all, but it’s tiny compared to labor costs. It turns out, doctors and nurses are very popular, and they vote their economic interest. Good luck getting UHC in the US that pays them less.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

qaq 8y ago

40% of US GDP is financial services it would be hard to argue that you could preserve that without being dominant military power.

clarkmoody 8y ago
I would blame the size of the financial services sector on the Fed and inflationary money. I don't see what military power has to do with it? What's the size of the financial sector of Luxembourg or Switzerland?
- qaq 8y ago
  Well name 1 other country that cab increase money supply the way FED does yet maintains the status of world's reserve currency? Luxembourg nobody cares on a global scale. Switzerland has extremely competent military and they are def. not in a position to manipulate the currency the way FED does and remain a viable financial center.
  - rsync 8y ago
    "Switzerland has extremely competent military and they are def. not in a position to manipulate the currency the way FED does and remain a viable financial center." Well, actually, since you brought it up ... The SNB has been buying euros, and other currencies (selling swiss francs) since 2011 in an effort to depress its value, which they believe is too high and hurts their exports. Here is a decent summary of the events leading up to their interventions and the current scenario: https://admiralmarkets.com/analytics/traders-blog/price-shock-when-the-swiss-national-bank-unpegged-the-swiss-franc-from-the-euro https://admiralmarkets.com/analytics/traders-blog/price-shoc... In summary, the CHF is viewed by many market participants as a safe-haven, or reserve currency (especially in Europe) and the Swiss National Bank has been acting, unilaterally, for many years to manipulate the CHF downwards in value.
    - qaq 8y ago
      Thats an interesting read I was not aware this was done at this scale. But still hard to remove military from equation.
  - arkis22 8y ago
    Switzerland has been manipulating their currency for almost a decade now. The central bank has been consistently selling reserves to keep their currency low. The USD is the world's reserve currency because we have a balance of being the largest economy with a fair rule of law, lots of real estate, 50 competing states, natural resources, and the manufacturing expertise that means if anything goes super wrong we're the best place to be. Luxembourg and Switzerland also have a history of being tax havens.
adventured 8y ago
Financial services - including insurance - are 7.5% of the US economy, not 40%. https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united-states https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united...
- qaq 8y ago
  Most places put it at around 20% I am def off on the 40% figure. (might be the % of exports?)

mtgx 8y ago

You wouldn't need that much for free healthcare. Remember people already pay a ton for healthcare. You'd just repackage those payments into taxes for free universal healthcare and then the government would have to pay the difference.

zaroth 8y ago
This word “free” you keep using.... I’m not sure it means what you think it means?
- fucking_tragedy 8y ago
  This point you're making is pretty pedantic considering the OP clearly recognizes that funding for universal healthcare comes from somewhere, they say as much themselves.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    I mean, that was kinda the point?
    - joe5150 8y ago
      "Free" as in "free at the point of use" is a well-understood concept

geezerjay 8y ago

You're missing the fact that the US military is in its core a employment and social services program used extensively to create artificial jobs and artificial demand for skilled labour and high-tech products and services. Not to mention the cultural importance that the US military as an institution has on the US, of course.

freehunter 8y ago
And those skilled labor and high-tech products and services would transition extraordinarily well to a space-based economy.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  What exactly makes you believe that rocket science is a domain that's easy to transition into?
  - freehunter 8y ago
    Very little about space is rocket science. Cars are really hard to build and it took thousands of years for mankind to build one, but that doesn't mean the person changing your oil has to know how to fabricate one from scratch in his garage. There are thousands of job titles around the auto industry that require zero knowledge of how cars work.

adventured 8y ago

You're underestimating the cost of US healthcare per capita by an extreme amount. Universal healthcare would cost a minimum of $3.6 trillion (that's an ideal scenario where the US gets its per capita spending down to other high spending nations), and a more likely ~$4.5 trillion. Higher education for all would cost at least $600 billion (close to the existing spending for all post secondary institutions annually), more likely $750b+ with the cost expansion that would entail. You obviously can't eliminate all of the US defense budget. That would be wildly irrational and dangerous. Let's say the best you can do is a 2% of GDP expenditure rate, or roughly $400 billion per year. That $300 billion directed at universal healthcare would pay for the healthcare of 20 million people, 6% of the US population.

yonkshi 8y ago
Would you please provide some sources on all your numbers? those are some astronomical numbers and are essential in validating your point. Edit: I did some of my own research, UHC take 8~11% GDP in other countries. That would put us around 1.8 trillion (2016 GDP). Much less than $3.5 trillion you claimed. Plus, US is already spending 16% of GDP (~3 trillion) on health care, despite not having universal healthcare. 11% GDP for UHC does not seem like a bad idea to me source: https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm
- Aloisius 8y ago
  Remember, government spending increases the GDP. You'd have to get closer to $2 trillion to hit 11% if, for some reason, one wanted to use that as a target rather than per-capita spending.
- mercutio2 8y ago
  Universal health care isn’t magic pixie dust. The way UHC costs less is by paying doctors and nurses less. Negotiating lower pharmaceutical rates and reducing billing costs is nice and all, but it’s tiny compared to labor costs. It turns out, doctors and nurses are very popular, and they vote their economic interest. Good luck getting UHC in the US that pays them less.