5 ms·

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American

by api 8y ago

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American working and middle class are accelerating. They have nothing to lose that wouldn't be lost anyway. You're totally right that the result will just make them angrier and the cycle will repeat. This is how civilizations fall. If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Here's a suggestion: if you want to go after backward illiberal social and cultural beliefs and policies, punch up. Criticize the rich and powerful advocates of those policies. Don't punch down at poor working class people who regardless of what they believe have no power to actually implement anything anyway.

pjc50 8y ago
I've started describing Brexit as "anti-globalisation riots for the over-50s". Instead of throwing a park bench through the window of a Starbucks they're going for something much more disruptive.
- alexgmcm 8y ago
  Can we use their triple-locked pensions to pay for it then?
wilsonnb2 8y ago
> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy suggestions (or the policy suggestions of most other Democrats) can say that liberals don't give a damn about America's poor and shrinking middle class with a straight face. Here's a selection of Hillary Clinton's policy positions from the 2016 election that would help the poor or the shrinking middle class. I understand that most of them aren't actual policy - however, if you go to the website where I pulled this from [1] you can find information about specific policy as well. I just went for the quotes here to make my point while keeping the comment brief. > "Provide tax relief to working families from the rising costs they face" > "Simplify and cut taxes for small businesses so they can hire and grow." > "Make debt free college available to all Americans." > "Hillary Clinton has announced a $275 billion, five-year plan to rebuild our infrastructure—and put Americans to work in the process." > "Bring down out-of-pocket costs like copays and deductibles" > "Reduce the cost of prescription drugs." > "Fight for health insurance for the lowest-income Americans in every state by incentivizing states to expand Medicaid" > "Expand access to rural Americans, who often have difficulty finding quality, affordable health care" > "Remove barriers to sustainable homeownership." > "Help responsible homeowners save for a down payment." > "Defend the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau" > "Strengthen American manufacturing with a $10 billion “Make it in America” plan." > "Restore collective bargaining rights for unions and defend against partisan attacks on workers’ rights." > "calling for a tax credit for businesses that hire apprentices, providing much needed on-the-job training—especially for young Americans." [1] https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
- api 8y ago
  An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s. At this point the issue has been ignored for so long that people have lost all trust in the current establishment. They assume any promises from the current establishment are BS to get them to vote and will be forgotten right after the election. If your house has been on fire forever and is burned down to cinders and the fire department finally shows up you're not going to thank them. You're going to yell at them and tear them a new one. You're probably so mad that you're going to tear the hose out of the hydrant and scream "let it f'ing burn you !#$!#$!#" The house has been on fire since the mid-1970s. The roof collapsed in 2008. I think it might aid understanding to look only at the Republican primary. Jeb Bush was the favorite, and Trump destroyed him. Jeb like Hillary was seen as establishment, a relative of two former presidents who also had an opportunity to put out the fire but did nothing. Hillary Clinton is a part of the establishment. Her husband is a former president who presided over a booming decade when these problems could have been fixed but weren't. Trump rightly or wrongly was perceived as being an outsider hostile to that establishment. Personally I see him as an opportunistic con man who saw a chance and took it, but it doesn't matter. The chance was there to be taken. Edit: continuing with the fire metaphor: the roof collapsed in 2008 at the tail end of the Bush II administration. Obama sort of noticed and walked up and peed on it. The pee sizzled and steamed for a second and the flames shot higher.
  - wilsonnb2 8y ago
    > An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s. You do say that this. But, you also say that liberals "need to start actually giving a damn" about the poor and working class. I am refuting that point by showing that the liberal agenda is actually aimed at helping the middle class and the poor. > What are the victims of these policies going to do? Nobody listens to them. Nobody cares. So in the end all they're left with is political revolts that most of them from what I've read understand are likely impotent, but at least somebody is discussing it. I'm a coastal "tech elite" and I'm writing this post and I wouldn't be if Hillary had won and Brexit hadn't passed. That's democracy I guess. The problem with your assessment is not that the Trump situation could have been avoided by changing policy between the early 2000's and the 2016 election. I agree with that. You assert that nobody is listening to or caring about these people, though, which is what I am refuting. The Democratic party is in favor of helping the poor and the middle class, and it has been for a long time. > Obama sort of noticed and walked up and peed on it. The pee sizzled and steamed for a second and the flames shot higher. Obama could have (and would have) done a lot more than "pee" on the flames, as you put it, had he not had to contend with an obstructionist Congress. There is only so much blame you can put on any President due to the limitations on their powers, and very little blame that can be put on Obama in my opinion.
mcphage 8y ago
> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. I'm not sure why you think they don't. Personal bankruptcies dropped by half since the ACA passed, and health care costs were one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy. Who passed the ACA, despite the enormous cost in political capital? The Democrats. Seriously, they lost tons of seats in Congress over the ACA, despite it being a good law, that has helped millions of people. So yes, I do have sympathy to the American poor & working class. But when they burn the party that tries to help them, and pushed the party that's trying to hurt them to control over the entire government... Honest question: how can the Democrats help them? What political capital do they have left that those same people you're complaining the Democrats don't help, have shut the Democrats out of power across the entire country?
- specialist 8y ago
  Punishing people who try to help. What is this phenomenon called? Anti-Good Samaritan? No good deed goes unpunished? Resentment? As an election integrity activist, I've had multiple people scream in my face very threateningly about stolen elections. "That's why I'm here buddy. Why y'all yelling at me?"
- belorn 8y ago
  Look at the extreme polarization in politics. How has the Democrats described the poor & working class males which is a large voting group for Trump? Polarization in politics is exceptional harmful because it reduces the impact of good laws. So long the general perception is that the Democrats view poor & working class males as "the other" and "evil" the lower the chance is that any law will impact voting patterns.
- api 8y ago
  The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause: loss of solid well paying jobs with upward mobility.
  - 8y ago

by api 8y ago

pjc50 8y ago

I've started describing Brexit as "anti-globalisation riots for the over-50s". Instead of throwing a park bench through the window of a Starbucks they're going for something much more disruptive.

alexgmcm 8y ago
Can we use their triple-locked pensions to pay for it then?

wilsonnb2 8y ago

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy suggestions (or the policy suggestions of most other Democrats) can say that liberals don't give a damn about America's poor and shrinking middle class with a straight face. Here's a selection of Hillary Clinton's policy positions from the 2016 election that would help the poor or the shrinking middle class. I understand that most of them aren't actual policy - however, if you go to the website where I pulled this from [1] you can find information about specific policy as well. I just went for the quotes here to make my point while keeping the comment brief. > "Provide tax relief to working families from the rising costs they face" > "Simplify and cut taxes for small businesses so they can hire and grow." > "Make debt free college available to all Americans." > "Hillary Clinton has announced a $275 billion, five-year plan to rebuild our infrastructure—and put Americans to work in the process." > "Bring down out-of-pocket costs like copays and deductibles" > "Reduce the cost of prescription drugs." > "Fight for health insurance for the lowest-income Americans in every state by incentivizing states to expand Medicaid" > "Expand access to rural Americans, who often have difficulty finding quality, affordable health care" > "Remove barriers to sustainable homeownership." > "Help responsible homeowners save for a down payment." > "Defend the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau" > "Strengthen American manufacturing with a $10 billion “Make it in America” plan." > "Restore collective bargaining rights for unions and defend against partisan attacks on workers’ rights." > "calling for a tax credit for businesses that hire apprentices, providing much needed on-the-job training—especially for young Americans." [1] https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/ https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

api 8y ago
An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s. At this point the issue has been ignored for so long that people have lost all trust in the current establishment. They assume any promises from the current establishment are BS to get them to vote and will be forgotten right after the election. If your house has been on fire forever and is burned down to cinders and the fire department finally shows up you're not going to thank them. You're going to yell at them and tear them a new one. You're probably so mad that you're going to tear the hose out of the hydrant and scream "let it f'ing burn you !#$!#$!#" The house has been on fire since the mid-1970s. The roof collapsed in 2008. I think it might aid understanding to look only at the Republican primary. Jeb Bush was the favorite, and Trump destroyed him. Jeb like Hillary was seen as establishment, a relative of two former presidents who also had an opportunity to put out the fire but did nothing. Hillary Clinton is a part of the establishment. Her husband is a former president who presided over a booming decade when these problems could have been fixed but weren't. Trump rightly or wrongly was perceived as being an outsider hostile to that establishment. Personally I see him as an opportunistic con man who saw a chance and took it, but it doesn't matter. The chance was there to be taken. Edit: continuing with the fire metaphor: the roof collapsed in 2008 at the tail end of the Bush II administration. Obama sort of noticed and walked up and peed on it. The pee sizzled and steamed for a second and the flames shot higher.
- wilsonnb2 8y ago
  > An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s. You do say that this. But, you also say that liberals "need to start actually giving a damn" about the poor and working class. I am refuting that point by showing that the liberal agenda is actually aimed at helping the middle class and the poor. > What are the victims of these policies going to do? Nobody listens to them. Nobody cares. So in the end all they're left with is political revolts that most of them from what I've read understand are likely impotent, but at least somebody is discussing it. I'm a coastal "tech elite" and I'm writing this post and I wouldn't be if Hillary had won and Brexit hadn't passed. That's democracy I guess. The problem with your assessment is not that the Trump situation could have been avoided by changing policy between the early 2000's and the 2016 election. I agree with that. You assert that nobody is listening to or caring about these people, though, which is what I am refuting. The Democratic party is in favor of helping the poor and the middle class, and it has been for a long time. > Obama sort of noticed and walked up and peed on it. The pee sizzled and steamed for a second and the flames shot higher. Obama could have (and would have) done a lot more than "pee" on the flames, as you put it, had he not had to contend with an obstructionist Congress. There is only so much blame you can put on any President due to the limitations on their powers, and very little blame that can be put on Obama in my opinion.

mcphage 8y ago

specialist 8y ago
Punishing people who try to help. What is this phenomenon called? Anti-Good Samaritan? No good deed goes unpunished? Resentment? As an election integrity activist, I've had multiple people scream in my face very threateningly about stolen elections. "That's why I'm here buddy. Why y'all yelling at me?"
belorn 8y ago
Look at the extreme polarization in politics. How has the Democrats described the poor & working class males which is a large voting group for Trump? Polarization in politics is exceptional harmful because it reduces the impact of good laws. So long the general perception is that the Democrats view poor & working class males as "the other" and "evil" the lower the chance is that any law will impact voting patterns.
api 8y ago
The ACA helped a bit but it did not affect the root cause: loss of solid well paying jobs with upward mobility.
- 8y ago