4 ms·

More and More of What We Do Depends on Government Permission

36 points by eplanit 8y ago

londons_explore 8y ago
Need permission to fish. Need permission to play music. Don't need permission to have a baby. Seems like the biggest loophole ever in a democratic world.
nictrix 8y ago
Does anyone know if there has been a case between the IRS and a person in tax debt trying to travel? Be great to see where that goes and how it's challenged.
- modells 8y ago
  IANAL. Case? Probably not yet. Check LexisNexis if you have access. Per the 2015 FAST Act, section 7345 of the IRC orders the IRS to tell the State Dept to revoke or deny someone’s passport. There ought to be a Fifth Amendment challenge to this as it appears to violate a basic human right to travel freely. And also debtors’ prisons for spousal/child support and unpaid rent (!) still exist is another matter of regression. Interesting article: https://www.irsmedic.com/blog/2018/07/irs-passport-constitution.html https://www.irsmedic.com/blog/2018/07/irs-passport-constitut... http://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=irs+debt+passport http://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=irs+debt+passport
mikhailfranco 8y ago
More from The Economist: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/03/02/too-much-federal-regulation-has-piled-up-in-america https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/03/02/too-much-... And many previous HN discussions of Civil Asset Forfeiture (aka highway robbery): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17395675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17395675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17210880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17210880 It seems the CBP border force does not have to respect constitutional rights and can detain you indefinitely without charge (e.g. for not providing a password for your phone). Of course, the IRS extorts from all Americans, wherever they are on the planet (and beyond - warning to Elon: renounce before blast-off). Add capture of the financial system by banks, corporations and elites; plus militarization of law enforcement with surplus hardware returning from many overseas interventions, and you have creeping boiling-the-frog fascism.
- krageon 8y ago
  While you make some valid points, I think you're taking it a bit far with your statement that your tax authority performs extortion. Taxes are a part of citizenship. If you do not like that, that is your right. You cannot just stop paying them just because you are selfish, that is not how social contracts work. While on some levels you can call that extortion (it is after all backed by violence to some degree), you'd have to be pretty willfully blind to not recognize that most people wouldn't use the term like that. Unless you have a point you are making that I'm missing?
  - mikhailfranco 8y ago
    > Taxes are a part of citizenship. Only for the US (and Eritrea). Your country should not own you and make extra-territorial claims on your income or wealth due to an accident of birth. Recently, the US has also made it harder and more expensive to renounce citizenship. Even if you have paid all back-taxes owing (and paid a large fee), it will not agree to release you from bondage, if it thinks your motivation (thought crime) is to avoid excessive future extra-territorial taxes!
    - krageon 8y ago
      There are other countries where this is the case. There are of course varying amounts of tax modulation, but you are generally expected to pay some amount of money even if you work overseas. You are a part of keeping your country running smoothly, and you pay taxes for that. If you want to be part of another country running smoothly, you can do so (some have very low taxes but are generally not super great to live in for varying reasons). I have no idea about the process for relinquishing US citizenship.
mabynogy 8y ago
The problem is the law not the government. We should remove laws instead of creating new ones.

36 points by eplanit 8y ago

Need permission to fish. Need permission to play music. Don't need permission to have a baby. Seems like the biggest loophole ever in a democratic world.

nictrix 8y ago

Does anyone know if there has been a case between the IRS and a person in tax debt trying to travel? Be great to see where that goes and how it's challenged.

modells 8y ago
IANAL. Case? Probably not yet. Check LexisNexis if you have access. Per the 2015 FAST Act, section 7345 of the IRC orders the IRS to tell the State Dept to revoke or deny someone’s passport. There ought to be a Fifth Amendment challenge to this as it appears to violate a basic human right to travel freely. And also debtors’ prisons for spousal/child support and unpaid rent (!) still exist is another matter of regression. Interesting article: https://www.irsmedic.com/blog/2018/07/irs-passport-constitution.html https://www.irsmedic.com/blog/2018/07/irs-passport-constitut... http://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=irs+debt+passport http://lmgtfy.com/?s=d&q=irs+debt+passport

mikhailfranco 8y ago

More from The Economist: https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/03/02/too-much-federal-regulation-has-piled-up-in-america https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/03/02/too-much-... And many previous HN discussions of Civil Asset Forfeiture (aka highway robbery): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17395675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17395675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17210880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17210880 It seems the CBP border force does not have to respect constitutional rights and can detain you indefinitely without charge (e.g. for not providing a password for your phone). Of course, the IRS extorts from all Americans, wherever they are on the planet (and beyond - warning to Elon: renounce before blast-off). Add capture of the financial system by banks, corporations and elites; plus militarization of law enforcement with surplus hardware returning from many overseas interventions, and you have creeping boiling-the-frog fascism.

krageon 8y ago
While you make some valid points, I think you're taking it a bit far with your statement that your tax authority performs extortion. Taxes are a part of citizenship. If you do not like that, that is your right. You cannot just stop paying them just because you are selfish, that is not how social contracts work. While on some levels you can call that extortion (it is after all backed by violence to some degree), you'd have to be pretty willfully blind to not recognize that most people wouldn't use the term like that. Unless you have a point you are making that I'm missing?
- mikhailfranco 8y ago
  > Taxes are a part of citizenship. Only for the US (and Eritrea). Your country should not own you and make extra-territorial claims on your income or wealth due to an accident of birth. Recently, the US has also made it harder and more expensive to renounce citizenship. Even if you have paid all back-taxes owing (and paid a large fee), it will not agree to release you from bondage, if it thinks your motivation (thought crime) is to avoid excessive future extra-territorial taxes!
  - krageon 8y ago
    There are other countries where this is the case. There are of course varying amounts of tax modulation, but you are generally expected to pay some amount of money even if you work overseas. You are a part of keeping your country running smoothly, and you pay taxes for that. If you want to be part of another country running smoothly, you can do so (some have very low taxes but are generally not super great to live in for varying reasons). I have no idea about the process for relinquishing US citizenship.

mabynogy 8y ago

The problem is the law not the government. We should remove laws instead of creating new ones.