11 ms·

How work kills us

104 points by kangman 8y ago

slededit 8y ago
Work may kill us, but I've also seen enough people die shortly after retirement to be a bit suspicious. It really depends on how much your career is a part of your identity.
- the-dude 8y ago
  I am suspicious too, I had not thought about identity yet but linked it with change in lifestyle. I have seen several men die 1 - 2 yrs after retirement. I know/have known men who never really retired, they just scaled back operations bit by bit. Like my dentist now at 71 scaled back to 3 days/week. Why he does it? "Because I like it". Or people who have shifted ownership of the business to their sons, but are still around some days of the week.
- 3rdAccount 8y ago
  Yea, IMO there is a connection there. Although I also think a lot of people only retire when they're on their last leg health wise. They probably would have passed regardless of retirement in the same time frame.
- iLemming 8y ago
  What so suspicious about it? People get old, people retire, people die.
mapcars 8y ago
Let me tell you the secret - life as a process is killing you every moment. One can not exist without another. Jobs is just something we chose to spent our short time on, as well as few other things.
- noja 8y ago
  Great secret. Thanks. Please RTFA. Also most people do not choose to do jobs, they have to do jobs.
  - imgabe 8y ago
    Perpetuating a victim mentality helps no one.
    - posting2fast 8y ago
      > And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? For me the correct answer is "neither, and now let's talk about why someone would ask that".
- some_account 8y ago
  We choose to spend our time working? Only because there is no other reasonable option.
  - v_lisivka 8y ago
    Unless you are slave or prisoner, yes, we choose to spend our time working or non-working.
    - noja 8y ago
      Which universe do you live in?
    - shodan666 8y ago
      You are silly
  - mapcars 8y ago
    You can chose to not have a job. There are plenty of people like this. Yes, they don't have same amount of money and conveniences, but hey hey, this is your life and you only have one. If you see yourself being fulfilled by doing something else - no one can stop you.
    - mrweasel 8y ago
      There's a point to that. It sort of depends on the country, the US is pretty good about having people live like it pleases them, but others are not. In Scandinavia I don't really see any good way of avoid some kind of job. There a some expenses that aren't necessarily tied to any particular living standard. What really surprises me is that politicians (Danish in my cases), refuse to discus the idea of reducing the length of the average work week (only one party suggested it, and was laughed of a being unrealistic). You could do a lot of good moving from a 37 hour work week to 30, but no, it's dismissed with no further debate. I really think that should be the discussion: How much do we need to work. Having it being black and white, job/no-job debate isn't particularly helpful. I know that some would argue that people can just "choose" to work less, but that's rarely an option. Very few industries allow you to choose how much you work. In terms of compensation I could be happy, financially, working only 75% of my current hours, while receiving an similar reduction in pay, but that's not something most companies find attractive.
cjohansson 8y ago
Being unemployed might kill us even more. I'm not sure I understand the argument here. In Finnish there is a idiom_ "People have died at home as well" that captures this idea that doing stuff away from home is not necessary less safe than being at home - you can die at home as well.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  The argument is that companies do arbitrary things that are both harmful to the health of employees and also harmful to the profitability of the companies. So the idea is that companies (and society) can actually make more money by doing things that are less impactful on employee health and that they should do them.
  - cjohansson 8y ago
    That sounds like a good argument that nobody would disagree with but by the end of the day I think that being unemployed is probably worse to your health than having a work "that kills you"
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      Well, the article isn't arguing that unemployment would be better, so that's apparently just a tedious reaction to the title?
- shodan666 8y ago
  Just vote for smarter politicians. If you are out of job: - The goverment should pay your health insurance, or it should be free. If you are in job: - You employer should pay your healh insurance (for GOVERMENT not for private indistry). The rate should be fixed or as fixed percentage of your income - the same no matter if you have any illness or not. This system works in Europe flawlessly. 3 pillars of socialism: - Free healthcare - Free education including university level education - Pension by goverment for ALL people who retire. In communist countries we had it all since 1945... Whats the point of goverment who is not giving you anything?
chriselles 8y ago
I had dinner last year with Professor Pfeffers along with some other GSB Alumni. This was just before his book went to print, but it was the topic of conversation. He makes some solid points. It’s pretty shocking, but understandable, since the impact on individuals, groups, and society isn’t like a physical workplace injury that has cause/effect immediacy.
js8 8y ago
"The 19th-century liberals reformed the workplace and changed capitalism to save it." This made me laugh. Which liberals? Karl Marx?
- EliRivers 8y ago
  Joseph Rowntree is the first name that comes into my head as a 19th-century liberal active in reforming the workplace.
- donbright 8y ago
  Otto von Bismark.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Many of the famous 19th century liberal industrialists that dramatically improved worker conditions for the period. Remarkably different to the attitudes of companies and directors today. For instance... William Lever, founder of Lever Brothers (now Unilever) famously created Port Sunlight village to house workers and ensure a healthy and happy workforce. He personally led the planning and building of the village. Hundreds of houses (beautiful houses in a lovely setting, even today) were built. Along with those the village had a free hospital, schools, a concert hall, open air swimming pool, church, and an art gallery (and bought art to put in it). He also introduced welfare and free education for workers and their families. There were many others. Modern day executives could learn a lot.
- random_moonwalk 8y ago
  Classical liberals were pro-free-market.
some_account 8y ago
>> In the US, employment status and your employer determine your access to health-care I have spotted the problem. As usual, America wins the absurdity trophy.
- expertentipp 8y ago
  Isn’t it case in most of the world, including many EU countries? Please don’t bring up the “free” healthcare, unviersal healthcare can really mistreat one for whom contributions are not paid.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Specific comparisons would make your comment more interesting.
  - skrebbel 8y ago
    Wait, what? Where else in the developed world do you lose access to basic health care (or, well, it'll bankrupt you and you'll be in shit for the rest of your life, same same) simply by losing a job? Do you really think that that is the case in most EU countries too?
  - mrweasel 8y ago
    >unviersal healthcare can really mistreat one for whom contributions are not paid The point is that there are no contributions, well taxes, but that doesn't go towards the individual but the health services as a whole. Stil, your employer can buy you "better" (or at least quicker) access to private alternatives, but I don't think that's what you meant.
  - jmngomes 8y ago
    It's not the case at all in most, if not all, EU countries. You have access to healthcare for small fees, and you'll generally get better care than in the private sector; you'll just have to wait longer if it's not urgent. I know for a fact that in at least two EU capitals private hospitals often forward patients they are unable to handle (e.g. complicated births) to public hospitals, who are more skilled and experienced.
ryanmercer 8y ago
>Second, employers affect the stress-inducing conditions of work: work-family conflict, long work hours, absence of control over one’s work environment, and economic insecurity. Stress makes people sick both directly and by inducing unhealthy individual behaviours such as smoking, drinking, and overeating. Not just stress, I simply hate my job. I'm stuck here, for 12 years now. "so get another job Ryan" bahahahaha you're funny. I have no degree, in the past month I was flat out rejected within 24 hours of applying to two jobs for not having a 4 year degree in ANYTHING. I have a personal bankruptcy which will prevent most employers from hiring me, in fact last year I took a remote job and a few days in discovered I couldn't log in... no one would return my emails... some time later I get an email saying if I don't return the laptop immediately I will be billed for it, I said fine send me a label 'we did to your email' the email address you blocked me from? 'oh'. Apparently my bankruptcy came up in the background they did AFTER hiring me, at no point did they ask me about my financial background, if I'd had a bankruptcy, or even if I had a criminal record... they waited until after training me and starting work, fortunately I hadn't quit my current job yet or I'd have been screwed. Yesterday, after 3 video interviews spanning 21 days, I was rejected for entry-level customer service remote work and was told "keep honing your skills. Maybe find a relevant side project or a local company to dip your toes deeper into a technology company". So I hate my job and no one else wants to even take a chance on me because I lack a degree, have a personal bankruptcy from 6 and a half years ago and have been in a niche job for 12 years. I legitimately wake up some days thinking "shit, why didn't I die in my sleep" because I have no future, each year I'm at this job I hate my life more. I dread doing ANYTHING most days now because it's "I can't really afford this" or "I just want to vegetate" or "what the hell happens if I have an unplanned expense of more than a few hundred bucks" or "what if mom has more issues". I get even more pigeonholed into being stuck at this job because it doesn't translate to anything else. Add to that I have a disabled parent I help support and my whopping 32k gross income doesn't even allow me to save for retirement. Awesome. SERENITY NOW! THIS is how work is killing me. I'm sure that stress, dread and worry are doing wonders for my long-term health.
- mrweasel 8y ago
  Do you know why a personal bankruptcy prevents you from being hired? That seems very weird, it should be completely separate from your work and can't in anyway harm your employer.
reustle 8y ago
There was a small documentary recently about japanese people who die alone in their houses. One of the inverviewed people said that people have a really hard to adjusting from the community they have at work, and the hierarchical system, to completely on their own in a 'flat' community once they're retired.
known 8y ago
Rise of the rent-seeker https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2017/08/03/unproductive-entrepreneurship-is-increasingly-common-in-america https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2017/08/03/un...
- alexgmcm 8y ago
  The rise and rise of rentier capitalism is by far the biggest scourge in our modern economy. Henry George and even Adam Smith identified the problems centuries ago and yet here we are.
dnate 8y ago
> AI and automation will almost certainly make things worse This quote is followed by percentages of jobs being at risk. But I find it not convincing at all. There are measures society can take to care for the unemployed. And realistically speaking, I look forward to a future where AI and automation makes most of our manual labor jobs obsolete.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

104 points by kangman 8y ago

Work may kill us, but I've also seen enough people die shortly after retirement to be a bit suspicious. It really depends on how much your career is a part of your identity.

the-dude 8y ago
I am suspicious too, I had not thought about identity yet but linked it with change in lifestyle. I have seen several men die 1 - 2 yrs after retirement. I know/have known men who never really retired, they just scaled back operations bit by bit. Like my dentist now at 71 scaled back to 3 days/week. Why he does it? "Because I like it". Or people who have shifted ownership of the business to their sons, but are still around some days of the week.
3rdAccount 8y ago
Yea, IMO there is a connection there. Although I also think a lot of people only retire when they're on their last leg health wise. They probably would have passed regardless of retirement in the same time frame.
iLemming 8y ago
What so suspicious about it? People get old, people retire, people die.

mapcars 8y ago

Let me tell you the secret - life as a process is killing you every moment. One can not exist without another. Jobs is just something we chose to spent our short time on, as well as few other things.

noja 8y ago
Great secret. Thanks. Please RTFA. Also most people do not choose to do jobs, they have to do jobs.
- imgabe 8y ago
  Perpetuating a victim mentality helps no one.
  - posting2fast 8y ago
    > And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? For me the correct answer is "neither, and now let's talk about why someone would ask that".
some_account 8y ago
We choose to spend our time working? Only because there is no other reasonable option.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  Unless you are slave or prisoner, yes, we choose to spend our time working or non-working.
  - noja 8y ago
    Which universe do you live in?
  - shodan666 8y ago
    You are silly
- mapcars 8y ago
  You can chose to not have a job. There are plenty of people like this. Yes, they don't have same amount of money and conveniences, but hey hey, this is your life and you only have one. If you see yourself being fulfilled by doing something else - no one can stop you.
  - mrweasel 8y ago
    There's a point to that. It sort of depends on the country, the US is pretty good about having people live like it pleases them, but others are not. In Scandinavia I don't really see any good way of avoid some kind of job. There a some expenses that aren't necessarily tied to any particular living standard. What really surprises me is that politicians (Danish in my cases), refuse to discus the idea of reducing the length of the average work week (only one party suggested it, and was laughed of a being unrealistic). You could do a lot of good moving from a 37 hour work week to 30, but no, it's dismissed with no further debate. I really think that should be the discussion: How much do we need to work. Having it being black and white, job/no-job debate isn't particularly helpful. I know that some would argue that people can just "choose" to work less, but that's rarely an option. Very few industries allow you to choose how much you work. In terms of compensation I could be happy, financially, working only 75% of my current hours, while receiving an similar reduction in pay, but that's not something most companies find attractive.

cjohansson 8y ago

Being unemployed might kill us even more. I'm not sure I understand the argument here. In Finnish there is a idiom_ "People have died at home as well" that captures this idea that doing stuff away from home is not necessary less safe than being at home - you can die at home as well.

maxerickson 8y ago
The argument is that companies do arbitrary things that are both harmful to the health of employees and also harmful to the profitability of the companies. So the idea is that companies (and society) can actually make more money by doing things that are less impactful on employee health and that they should do them.
- cjohansson 8y ago
  That sounds like a good argument that nobody would disagree with but by the end of the day I think that being unemployed is probably worse to your health than having a work "that kills you"
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Well, the article isn't arguing that unemployment would be better, so that's apparently just a tedious reaction to the title?
shodan666 8y ago
Just vote for smarter politicians. If you are out of job: - The goverment should pay your health insurance, or it should be free. If you are in job: - You employer should pay your healh insurance (for GOVERMENT not for private indistry). The rate should be fixed or as fixed percentage of your income - the same no matter if you have any illness or not. This system works in Europe flawlessly. 3 pillars of socialism: - Free healthcare - Free education including university level education - Pension by goverment for ALL people who retire. In communist countries we had it all since 1945... Whats the point of goverment who is not giving you anything?

chriselles 8y ago

I had dinner last year with Professor Pfeffers along with some other GSB Alumni. This was just before his book went to print, but it was the topic of conversation. He makes some solid points. It’s pretty shocking, but understandable, since the impact on individuals, groups, and society isn’t like a physical workplace injury that has cause/effect immediacy.

js8 8y ago

"The 19th-century liberals reformed the workplace and changed capitalism to save it." This made me laugh. Which liberals? Karl Marx?

EliRivers 8y ago
Joseph Rowntree is the first name that comes into my head as a 19th-century liberal active in reforming the workplace.
donbright 8y ago
Otto von Bismark.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Many of the famous 19th century liberal industrialists that dramatically improved worker conditions for the period. Remarkably different to the attitudes of companies and directors today. For instance... William Lever, founder of Lever Brothers (now Unilever) famously created Port Sunlight village to house workers and ensure a healthy and happy workforce. He personally led the planning and building of the village. Hundreds of houses (beautiful houses in a lovely setting, even today) were built. Along with those the village had a free hospital, schools, a concert hall, open air swimming pool, church, and an art gallery (and bought art to put in it). He also introduced welfare and free education for workers and their families. There were many others. Modern day executives could learn a lot.
random_moonwalk 8y ago
Classical liberals were pro-free-market.

some_account 8y ago

>> In the US, employment status and your employer determine your access to health-care I have spotted the problem. As usual, America wins the absurdity trophy.

expertentipp 8y ago
Isn’t it case in most of the world, including many EU countries? Please don’t bring up the “free” healthcare, unviersal healthcare can really mistreat one for whom contributions are not paid.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Specific comparisons would make your comment more interesting.
- skrebbel 8y ago
  Wait, what? Where else in the developed world do you lose access to basic health care (or, well, it'll bankrupt you and you'll be in shit for the rest of your life, same same) simply by losing a job? Do you really think that that is the case in most EU countries too?
- mrweasel 8y ago
  >unviersal healthcare can really mistreat one for whom contributions are not paid The point is that there are no contributions, well taxes, but that doesn't go towards the individual but the health services as a whole. Stil, your employer can buy you "better" (or at least quicker) access to private alternatives, but I don't think that's what you meant.
- jmngomes 8y ago
  It's not the case at all in most, if not all, EU countries. You have access to healthcare for small fees, and you'll generally get better care than in the private sector; you'll just have to wait longer if it's not urgent. I know for a fact that in at least two EU capitals private hospitals often forward patients they are unable to handle (e.g. complicated births) to public hospitals, who are more skilled and experienced.

ryanmercer 8y ago

>Second, employers affect the stress-inducing conditions of work: work-family conflict, long work hours, absence of control over one’s work environment, and economic insecurity. Stress makes people sick both directly and by inducing unhealthy individual behaviours such as smoking, drinking, and overeating. Not just stress, I simply hate my job. I'm stuck here, for 12 years now. "so get another job Ryan" bahahahaha you're funny. I have no degree, in the past month I was flat out rejected within 24 hours of applying to two jobs for not having a 4 year degree in ANYTHING. I have a personal bankruptcy which will prevent most employers from hiring me, in fact last year I took a remote job and a few days in discovered I couldn't log in... no one would return my emails... some time later I get an email saying if I don't return the laptop immediately I will be billed for it, I said fine send me a label 'we did to your email' the email address you blocked me from? 'oh'. Apparently my bankruptcy came up in the background they did AFTER hiring me, at no point did they ask me about my financial background, if I'd had a bankruptcy, or even if I had a criminal record... they waited until after training me and starting work, fortunately I hadn't quit my current job yet or I'd have been screwed. Yesterday, after 3 video interviews spanning 21 days, I was rejected for entry-level customer service remote work and was told "keep honing your skills. Maybe find a relevant side project or a local company to dip your toes deeper into a technology company". So I hate my job and no one else wants to even take a chance on me because I lack a degree, have a personal bankruptcy from 6 and a half years ago and have been in a niche job for 12 years. I legitimately wake up some days thinking "shit, why didn't I die in my sleep" because I have no future, each year I'm at this job I hate my life more. I dread doing ANYTHING most days now because it's "I can't really afford this" or "I just want to vegetate" or "what the hell happens if I have an unplanned expense of more than a few hundred bucks" or "what if mom has more issues". I get even more pigeonholed into being stuck at this job because it doesn't translate to anything else. Add to that I have a disabled parent I help support and my whopping 32k gross income doesn't even allow me to save for retirement. Awesome. SERENITY NOW! THIS is how work is killing me. I'm sure that stress, dread and worry are doing wonders for my long-term health.

mrweasel 8y ago
Do you know why a personal bankruptcy prevents you from being hired? That seems very weird, it should be completely separate from your work and can't in anyway harm your employer.

reustle 8y ago

There was a small documentary recently about japanese people who die alone in their houses. One of the inverviewed people said that people have a really hard to adjusting from the community they have at work, and the hierarchical system, to completely on their own in a 'flat' community once they're retired.

known 8y ago

Rise of the rent-seeker https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2017/08/03/unproductive-entrepreneurship-is-increasingly-common-in-america https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2017/08/03/un...

alexgmcm 8y ago
The rise and rise of rentier capitalism is by far the biggest scourge in our modern economy. Henry George and even Adam Smith identified the problems centuries ago and yet here we are.

dnate 8y ago

> AI and automation will almost certainly make things worse This quote is followed by percentages of jobs being at risk. But I find it not convincing at all. There are measures society can take to care for the unemployed. And realistically speaking, I look forward to a future where AI and automation makes most of our manual labor jobs obsolete.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]