7 ms·

Peter Thiel: “Hypnotic Mass Phenomena”

39 points by ovi256 8y ago

VeejayRampay 8y ago
The ego on those people, it never fails to amaze me, condescendingly judging entire continents with thousands of years of history.
- jmngomes 8y ago
  What I read in such a statement is something along the lines of 'The people of the world do not act for my benefit and as I wish, therefore they are lame'. The hubris is as disgusting as the person's end game is obvious. This narrative actually reminds of https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/despot-disguise-democracy-james-mcgill-buchanan-totalitarian-capitalism https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/despot...
- api 8y ago
  I think you're succumbing to a distortion brought about by Thiel's wealth and status. Ordinary people make blanket oversimplified statements all the time but because these people don't have such elevated status those statements are not taken as seriously. As a result they don't sound quite so glib. As a general rule the higher your perceived status the more criticism you get. Another example would be Elon's Twitter spat. Some random dude on the Internet gets into it with another random dude on the Internet and calls him some bad names and nobody cares and nobody takes it seriously, but when it's two high-profile people it's an international story.
  - salawat 8y ago
    "Noblesse oblige". Or if you prefer the more modern version, "With great power comes great responsibility." It isn't just a "distortion" or quirk. It's a social obligation that goes a long way back. The new American billionaire would do well to remember that their state of privilege comes with a whole new set of do's and don'ts that if they were smart they would pay a good deal more attention to. The fact that many of the founding father's abhorred the idea of an aristocratic class developing is beside the point. If these magnates wish not to live under the microscope, them mayhaps they should look into actually doing something about the positive feedback loops they have exploited to get to the point they are at. I'm sure the labor force would appreciate the wage growth, and an end to under the table non-compete clauses, and forced arbitration clauses.
    - api 8y ago
      Yes, that's what I mean, but here's the thing. Elon (for example) is nuevo riche. People who are brought up in elite families are usually taught noblesse oblige as part of their upbringing.
  - notahacker 8y ago
    I think most people talk about politics most of the time in glib generalization, but the ego bit isn't just that he (reasonably) can expect people to take his dismissal of Europe seriously, but that he dismisses it by specifically lamenting its lack of opportunities for people like him and expressing contempt for its provision of opportunities for people that are not like him. Admittedly, he was responding to some pretty leading questions. More than anything else though, you have to admire the sheer chutzpah of someone dismissing the millions who do not share his politics as "establishment" in the middle of a discussion about his donations and advice to the President...
- emsy 8y ago
  Do you happen to live in Europe? I live in Germany and while the Silicon Valley mentality doesn’t look healthy or sane, Germany is surprisingly “lame” for such a successful country. The German economy relies too much on old industries and the politics here are unwilling to change anything about it, be it policies, funding or infrastructure.
  - carlmr 8y ago
    I live in Germany as well and I think it's less the politics and more the culture. He's absolutely right that there's this extreme envy here when someone is successful. The US has the opposite which is unquestioning adulation of success. Germans are extremely risk averse as well. Unicorn companies (whether you need them or not) are high risk-high reward companies which usually come with something entirely new. Thiel is spot on on these two. I'd personally add that there's a huge problem if you work in industry here and your CV doesn't have a simple path that always pointed in the same direction. Experimentation is almost culturally forbidden.
    - VeejayRampay 8y ago
      Back to my initial point, there might be something to be told about Germany (or my country France for that matter) and its unwillingness to "take risks" (whatever that means), but Germany has been successful as an economy for how long now? You guys are masters in engineering, long-term planning, leading Europe in terms of denuclearization, the green economy, you can build pretty much anything if you put your mind to it and some guy from across the ocean is going to come and call that lame? Let's be serious a second, Europe has been around for a while now, I really don't like people who know very little of the context calling shots as to who's in and who's not like their opinion matters. It's like those articles with European "thinkers" condescending to the US because they don't have a proper social security safety net or affordable health care, it's ignorant.
      - repolfx 8y ago
        Maybe. German wages have been stagnant for a long time - the economy is successful at exporting things but not so much at raising living standards of ordinary Germans. Leading Europe in terms of denuclearization and the green economy, on the other hand, is just not an accurate read of the situation. Yes Merkel shut down the reactors and insisted on green energy. Now Germany emits more CO2 than before due to the need for lots of coal burning power stations to provide base load. From an environment perspective it was a disaster. Germany does well, for sure, I'm not criticising it. But it gets a lot of uncritical press too, especially with respect to its economy.
evfanknitram 8y ago
Interesting how he thinks that science, religion and tech is more important than politics.
- moccachino 8y ago
  I don't know how he squares that view with his support for Trump
raprp 8y ago
Yep. Free healthcare and 2000 euros / year university tuition really suck.
- thieving_magpie 8y ago
  US Health care costs are wildly expensive but describing healthcare in Europe as "free" seems terribly misleading.
  - amaccuish 8y ago
    well it is in the UK :) (yes everyone knows tax pays for it, spreading the burdon etc.)
    - carlmr 8y ago
      That's the exception though. I pay almost 700€ a month in Germany and my employer pays a part, too. It's actually quite expensive, except if you're poor. EDIT: Not sure why I got downvoted for stating facts. European health care is not free. And the defense budget is separate. They have nothing to do with each other.
      - germanier 8y ago
        Public health insurance premiums in Germany are capped at slightly above 700€, including the part the employer pays (Beitragsbemessungsgrenze is the relevant keyword here).
rando444 8y ago
>Because in a democracy, we believe that the average person should be able to make some judgements: Do you like the funny man with the strange hairdo or do you like the mean grandmother for president in the United States? These are some common sense things that people should be able to debate. And if you say that you are not allowed to think about that, then you probably should not be allowed to think about anything. Who on Earth is this directed at? This is the kind of rhetoric you expect from 3rd and 4th graders. I feel secondary embarrassment as an adult just knowing that someone that should be a peer or higher thinks like this.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  49something percent of voting Americans are the audience for that kind of rhetoric. And I think we fail ourselves when we fail to accept that a vast quantity of people live and vote with their emotional brain and not their logical brain. I feel that one of the largest struggles, one of the largest causes of divide, is that to logical actors, the concept of an emotional actor is just so invalid that we believe them to be fundamentally wrong and broken and in need of fixing and education. I'm not arguing that irrationality and emotion-driven voting is an equal alternative to rationalism. I think my point is that we can't just dismiss it as broken and in need of fixing. It's how our brains can work and it's a valid state of being. I'm 31 and run upstairs in a panic when I switch the basement light off. Don't shake your head at how much of a fool I am, empathize with how I'm still sometimes driven by 3 million years of evolutionary practice of running away from predators. Edit: Clarified in a child reply why my train of thought went in this direction as a response to parent.
  - olavk 8y ago
    I assume you consider yourself a "logical actor" and the people you disagree with "emotional actors"? But I don't see how political leaning can be anything but emotional. Logic does not tell you what goals you aim for or what society you want.
    - Waterluvian 8y ago
      I would classify myself as someone who endeavours to be a "logical actor" but is consciously aware that it's a constant battle against my emotional and fight-or-flight brain. I definitely don't make purely unbiased, Vulcan-like decisions. But I try my best to make sensible decisions. Maybe there's no such thing as a "logical actor". Just people who endeavour to override that part of their brain and people who don't? I'm thinking first-hand about family members who make no effort to scrutinize their political leanings. They're completely emotionally driven in their opinions and actions. I would go so far as to call these family members racist, but I don't think they're trying to be. They just genuinely believe that their poor healthcare access is because of all the immigrants moving into their community and the fix is a politician who will protect them from immigrants. Even though that politician explicitly said they would cut healthcare budget by double digit percentages.
untog 8y ago
> The mentioning of his name sends shockwaves through Silicon Valley > And there he is: Rather short for being an internet giant, Mr. Thiel has a strong, dynamic appearance and an extraordinary quickness in his thought. This is cringeworthy stuff, as introductions go. I don't hide that I'm not particularly fond of Peter Thiel, but I'd absolutely love to read an in-depth interview with him. This is... not that. - Asks one shallow question about the "diversity myth" then immediately pivots to "so you like Star Wars?". - Asks about his New Zealand citizenship... but in the context of him being a fan of Tolkien, not probing any of the widely-asked questions about how he obtained it. - He throws out lines like "We live in a world where there is too much welfare and where work is undervalued" and it's entirely unquestioned. - "What’s your IQ?"
WestAmbition 8y ago
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lispm 8y ago
> The odd thing is that the main parts of the NATO alliance seem to be in Europe, not in America. That was the point. Seen from the US, it is much better to defend NATO in Europe, then doing it in the US. That was also the reason why West Germany was rebuild after the war: better use Germany as a member of NATO and fight the war against the USSR in Germany. For example huge tank battles in Northern Germany... Germany was set up with all kinds of military installations as the battle ground for WWIII in Europe. Seen from the US, there was nothing odd about it.
- carlmr 8y ago
  Yeah, this was kind of upsetting to me that he bought into that. NATO is saving the US money for all of what they're doing in the Middle East and Africa.
api 8y ago
This is a very good interview. The click bait title doesn't do it justice. I find myself agreeing with a huge fraction of what Thiel says, but I also find myself unable to actually agree with him. The block for me is admittedly his politics. It's not that his political views may be different from mine. That's fine. I have friends who are Marxists, democratic socialists, Christian conservatives, moderate libertarians, and admirers of Ayn Rand. But I have an Overton window just like everyone else and some things just don't fit into it. I have no friends who are fascists and I've dropped people because they start espousing those ideas. I also have no friends who are totalitarian Soviet-style communists, and there is at least one case where I've backed away from someone for seriously espousing the idea that the USSR had it right all along. Advocacy of totalitarian ideologies with demonstrated histories of massive bloodshed is outside my Overton window. I've also backed away from people for espousing racism, misogyny, and other kinds of intellectualized assholery. To me these are ideologies that go beyond just disagreement about how best to structure a society, how powerful government should be, or what its priorities should be. I think the thing they have in common is that they explicitly advocate hurting people and more importantly believe that you can actually make the world a better place by hurting certain people. You can make the world a better place by inflicting pain. So back to Thiel and his politics. Nowhere in his writing have I ever heard him explicitly advocate any of those things, but the company he keeps is another story. He seems to hang around with a fair number of explicit doctrinaire fascists. I could also say the same thing about Trump. Trump does not necessarily explicitly espouse fascism (though there are some debatable statements), but his most ardent and enthusiastic supporters are fascists. So here we go. I admire and agree with so much of what Thiel says about business, technology, and the state of the world, but how is it possible that these apparently very clear and good ideas can coexist with explicit advocacy of genocide? Or if he doesn't believe that maybe he should reconsider the company he keeps.
- sillysaurus3 8y ago
  I have no friends who are fascists and I've dropped people because they start espousing those ideas. To me these are ideologies that go beyond just disagreement about how best to structure a society, how powerful government should be, or what its priorities should be. I think the thing they have in common is that they explicitly advocate hurting people and more importantly believe that you can actually make the world a better place by hurting certain people. You can make the world a better place by inflicting pain. I think the defeat of Germany in WW2 has proved that's true. So back to Thiel and his politics. Nowhere in his writing have I ever heard him explicitly advocate any of those things, but the company he keeps is another story. He seems to hang around with a fair number of explicit doctrinaire fascists. explicit advocacy of genocide Since this article's off the front page, it probably won't hurt to delve into politics for a bit here. So I have to ask: What specifically are you talking about?
sillysaurus3 8y ago
> Peter Thiel, six months back, you announced to move your company to Los Angeles, citing doubts about the future of Silicon Valley. And yet, here we are at the headquarters of Thiel Capital in San Francisco! We are moving in August, keeping just one of the venture funds here in San Francisco. The judgement call that I am making is that in the next decade it will be less centralized where technology happens and that the incredible premium on this location will not be quite as big anymore. I'm shocked that everyone here is focused on his politics when he's making one of the biggest moves SV has seen. Sama seems to partially agree: http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
aap_ 8y ago
Why was this flagged? I think it was a rather interesting read.
- plinkplonk 8y ago
  Peter Thiel seems to be persona non grata in HN circles because he supported candidate Trump (in 2016) and later joined some sort of inner circle when Trump became president (is what I can make out from half a world away). This kind of flagging is borderline insanity imo. (I have no stake in US or SF politics / social phenomena)

39 points by ovi256 8y ago

The ego on those people, it never fails to amaze me, condescendingly judging entire continents with thousands of years of history.

jmngomes 8y ago
What I read in such a statement is something along the lines of 'The people of the world do not act for my benefit and as I wish, therefore they are lame'. The hubris is as disgusting as the person's end game is obvious. This narrative actually reminds of https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/despot-disguise-democracy-james-mcgill-buchanan-totalitarian-capitalism https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/despot...
api 8y ago
I think you're succumbing to a distortion brought about by Thiel's wealth and status. Ordinary people make blanket oversimplified statements all the time but because these people don't have such elevated status those statements are not taken as seriously. As a result they don't sound quite so glib. As a general rule the higher your perceived status the more criticism you get. Another example would be Elon's Twitter spat. Some random dude on the Internet gets into it with another random dude on the Internet and calls him some bad names and nobody cares and nobody takes it seriously, but when it's two high-profile people it's an international story.
- salawat 8y ago
  "Noblesse oblige". Or if you prefer the more modern version, "With great power comes great responsibility." It isn't just a "distortion" or quirk. It's a social obligation that goes a long way back. The new American billionaire would do well to remember that their state of privilege comes with a whole new set of do's and don'ts that if they were smart they would pay a good deal more attention to. The fact that many of the founding father's abhorred the idea of an aristocratic class developing is beside the point. If these magnates wish not to live under the microscope, them mayhaps they should look into actually doing something about the positive feedback loops they have exploited to get to the point they are at. I'm sure the labor force would appreciate the wage growth, and an end to under the table non-compete clauses, and forced arbitration clauses.
  - api 8y ago
    Yes, that's what I mean, but here's the thing. Elon (for example) is nuevo riche. People who are brought up in elite families are usually taught noblesse oblige as part of their upbringing.
- notahacker 8y ago
  I think most people talk about politics most of the time in glib generalization, but the ego bit isn't just that he (reasonably) can expect people to take his dismissal of Europe seriously, but that he dismisses it by specifically lamenting its lack of opportunities for people like him and expressing contempt for its provision of opportunities for people that are not like him. Admittedly, he was responding to some pretty leading questions. More than anything else though, you have to admire the sheer chutzpah of someone dismissing the millions who do not share his politics as "establishment" in the middle of a discussion about his donations and advice to the President...
emsy 8y ago
Do you happen to live in Europe? I live in Germany and while the Silicon Valley mentality doesn’t look healthy or sane, Germany is surprisingly “lame” for such a successful country. The German economy relies too much on old industries and the politics here are unwilling to change anything about it, be it policies, funding or infrastructure.
- carlmr 8y ago
  I live in Germany as well and I think it's less the politics and more the culture. He's absolutely right that there's this extreme envy here when someone is successful. The US has the opposite which is unquestioning adulation of success. Germans are extremely risk averse as well. Unicorn companies (whether you need them or not) are high risk-high reward companies which usually come with something entirely new. Thiel is spot on on these two. I'd personally add that there's a huge problem if you work in industry here and your CV doesn't have a simple path that always pointed in the same direction. Experimentation is almost culturally forbidden.
  - VeejayRampay 8y ago
    Back to my initial point, there might be something to be told about Germany (or my country France for that matter) and its unwillingness to "take risks" (whatever that means), but Germany has been successful as an economy for how long now? You guys are masters in engineering, long-term planning, leading Europe in terms of denuclearization, the green economy, you can build pretty much anything if you put your mind to it and some guy from across the ocean is going to come and call that lame? Let's be serious a second, Europe has been around for a while now, I really don't like people who know very little of the context calling shots as to who's in and who's not like their opinion matters. It's like those articles with European "thinkers" condescending to the US because they don't have a proper social security safety net or affordable health care, it's ignorant.
    - repolfx 8y ago
      Maybe. German wages have been stagnant for a long time - the economy is successful at exporting things but not so much at raising living standards of ordinary Germans. Leading Europe in terms of denuclearization and the green economy, on the other hand, is just not an accurate read of the situation. Yes Merkel shut down the reactors and insisted on green energy. Now Germany emits more CO2 than before due to the need for lots of coal burning power stations to provide base load. From an environment perspective it was a disaster. Germany does well, for sure, I'm not criticising it. But it gets a lot of uncritical press too, especially with respect to its economy.

evfanknitram 8y ago

Interesting how he thinks that science, religion and tech is more important than politics.

moccachino 8y ago
I don't know how he squares that view with his support for Trump

raprp 8y ago

Yep. Free healthcare and 2000 euros / year university tuition really suck.

thieving_magpie 8y ago
US Health care costs are wildly expensive but describing healthcare in Europe as "free" seems terribly misleading.
- amaccuish 8y ago
  well it is in the UK :) (yes everyone knows tax pays for it, spreading the burdon etc.)
  - carlmr 8y ago
    That's the exception though. I pay almost 700€ a month in Germany and my employer pays a part, too. It's actually quite expensive, except if you're poor. EDIT: Not sure why I got downvoted for stating facts. European health care is not free. And the defense budget is separate. They have nothing to do with each other.
    - germanier 8y ago
      Public health insurance premiums in Germany are capped at slightly above 700€, including the part the employer pays (Beitragsbemessungsgrenze is the relevant keyword here).

rando444 8y ago

>Because in a democracy, we believe that the average person should be able to make some judgements: Do you like the funny man with the strange hairdo or do you like the mean grandmother for president in the United States? These are some common sense things that people should be able to debate. And if you say that you are not allowed to think about that, then you probably should not be allowed to think about anything. Who on Earth is this directed at? This is the kind of rhetoric you expect from 3rd and 4th graders. I feel secondary embarrassment as an adult just knowing that someone that should be a peer or higher thinks like this.

Waterluvian 8y ago
49something percent of voting Americans are the audience for that kind of rhetoric. And I think we fail ourselves when we fail to accept that a vast quantity of people live and vote with their emotional brain and not their logical brain. I feel that one of the largest struggles, one of the largest causes of divide, is that to logical actors, the concept of an emotional actor is just so invalid that we believe them to be fundamentally wrong and broken and in need of fixing and education. I'm not arguing that irrationality and emotion-driven voting is an equal alternative to rationalism. I think my point is that we can't just dismiss it as broken and in need of fixing. It's how our brains can work and it's a valid state of being. I'm 31 and run upstairs in a panic when I switch the basement light off. Don't shake your head at how much of a fool I am, empathize with how I'm still sometimes driven by 3 million years of evolutionary practice of running away from predators. Edit: Clarified in a child reply why my train of thought went in this direction as a response to parent.
- olavk 8y ago
  I assume you consider yourself a "logical actor" and the people you disagree with "emotional actors"? But I don't see how political leaning can be anything but emotional. Logic does not tell you what goals you aim for or what society you want.
  - Waterluvian 8y ago
    I would classify myself as someone who endeavours to be a "logical actor" but is consciously aware that it's a constant battle against my emotional and fight-or-flight brain. I definitely don't make purely unbiased, Vulcan-like decisions. But I try my best to make sensible decisions. Maybe there's no such thing as a "logical actor". Just people who endeavour to override that part of their brain and people who don't? I'm thinking first-hand about family members who make no effort to scrutinize their political leanings. They're completely emotionally driven in their opinions and actions. I would go so far as to call these family members racist, but I don't think they're trying to be. They just genuinely believe that their poor healthcare access is because of all the immigrants moving into their community and the fix is a politician who will protect them from immigrants. Even though that politician explicitly said they would cut healthcare budget by double digit percentages.

untog 8y ago

> The mentioning of his name sends shockwaves through Silicon Valley > And there he is: Rather short for being an internet giant, Mr. Thiel has a strong, dynamic appearance and an extraordinary quickness in his thought. This is cringeworthy stuff, as introductions go. I don't hide that I'm not particularly fond of Peter Thiel, but I'd absolutely love to read an in-depth interview with him. This is... not that. - Asks one shallow question about the "diversity myth" then immediately pivots to "so you like Star Wars?". - Asks about his New Zealand citizenship... but in the context of him being a fan of Tolkien, not probing any of the widely-asked questions about how he obtained it. - He throws out lines like "We live in a world where there is too much welfare and where work is undervalued" and it's entirely unquestioned. - "What’s your IQ?"

WestAmbition 8y ago

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lispm 8y ago

> The odd thing is that the main parts of the NATO alliance seem to be in Europe, not in America. That was the point. Seen from the US, it is much better to defend NATO in Europe, then doing it in the US. That was also the reason why West Germany was rebuild after the war: better use Germany as a member of NATO and fight the war against the USSR in Germany. For example huge tank battles in Northern Germany... Germany was set up with all kinds of military installations as the battle ground for WWIII in Europe. Seen from the US, there was nothing odd about it.

carlmr 8y ago
Yeah, this was kind of upsetting to me that he bought into that. NATO is saving the US money for all of what they're doing in the Middle East and Africa.

api 8y ago

This is a very good interview. The click bait title doesn't do it justice. I find myself agreeing with a huge fraction of what Thiel says, but I also find myself unable to actually agree with him. The block for me is admittedly his politics. It's not that his political views may be different from mine. That's fine. I have friends who are Marxists, democratic socialists, Christian conservatives, moderate libertarians, and admirers of Ayn Rand. But I have an Overton window just like everyone else and some things just don't fit into it. I have no friends who are fascists and I've dropped people because they start espousing those ideas. I also have no friends who are totalitarian Soviet-style communists, and there is at least one case where I've backed away from someone for seriously espousing the idea that the USSR had it right all along. Advocacy of totalitarian ideologies with demonstrated histories of massive bloodshed is outside my Overton window. I've also backed away from people for espousing racism, misogyny, and other kinds of intellectualized assholery. To me these are ideologies that go beyond just disagreement about how best to structure a society, how powerful government should be, or what its priorities should be. I think the thing they have in common is that they explicitly advocate hurting people and more importantly believe that you can actually make the world a better place by hurting certain people. You can make the world a better place by inflicting pain. So back to Thiel and his politics. Nowhere in his writing have I ever heard him explicitly advocate any of those things, but the company he keeps is another story. He seems to hang around with a fair number of explicit doctrinaire fascists. I could also say the same thing about Trump. Trump does not necessarily explicitly espouse fascism (though there are some debatable statements), but his most ardent and enthusiastic supporters are fascists. So here we go. I admire and agree with so much of what Thiel says about business, technology, and the state of the world, but how is it possible that these apparently very clear and good ideas can coexist with explicit advocacy of genocide? Or if he doesn't believe that maybe he should reconsider the company he keeps.

sillysaurus3 8y ago
I have no friends who are fascists and I've dropped people because they start espousing those ideas. To me these are ideologies that go beyond just disagreement about how best to structure a society, how powerful government should be, or what its priorities should be. I think the thing they have in common is that they explicitly advocate hurting people and more importantly believe that you can actually make the world a better place by hurting certain people. You can make the world a better place by inflicting pain. I think the defeat of Germany in WW2 has proved that's true. So back to Thiel and his politics. Nowhere in his writing have I ever heard him explicitly advocate any of those things, but the company he keeps is another story. He seems to hang around with a fair number of explicit doctrinaire fascists. explicit advocacy of genocide Since this article's off the front page, it probably won't hurt to delve into politics for a bit here. So I have to ask: What specifically are you talking about?

sillysaurus3 8y ago

> Peter Thiel, six months back, you announced to move your company to Los Angeles, citing doubts about the future of Silicon Valley. And yet, here we are at the headquarters of Thiel Capital in San Francisco! We are moving in August, keeping just one of the venture funds here in San Francisco. The judgement call that I am making is that in the next decade it will be less centralized where technology happens and that the incredible premium on this location will not be quite as big anymore. I'm shocked that everyone here is focused on his politics when he's making one of the biggest moves SV has seen. Sama seems to partially agree: http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove http://blog.samaltman.com/e-pur-si-muove

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

aap_ 8y ago

Why was this flagged? I think it was a rather interesting read.

plinkplonk 8y ago
Peter Thiel seems to be persona non grata in HN circles because he supported candidate Trump (in 2016) and later joined some sort of inner circle when Trump became president (is what I can make out from half a world away). This kind of flagging is borderline insanity imo. (I have no stake in US or SF politics / social phenomena)