4 ms·

Venezuela has a totalitarian government who nationalized industries and implemented heavy price controls, putting those who don’t comply in jail (or to death by

Venezuela has a totalitarian government who nationalized industries and implemented heavy price controls, putting those who don’t comply in jail (or to death by government militia). I can’t imagine how this could even be compared to market economies such as Denmark or Sweden.

RugnirViking 8y ago
It nationalized oil - just like norway :) As for price controls, this happens all the time in countries in the west, ranging from farming subsidies to taxes on sugary foods. Another example where this often happens is minimum price controls per unit of alcohol Yes the government hasn't been great at human rights, but that doesn't make it socialist.
- andrenth 8y ago
  It’s nothing like Norway, no matter how many smiley faces you put over the citizens killed by the Venezuelan government. Price controls are a socialist measure. Name a country that has impelemented Venezuela-style price control, where business owners either sell at government-defined prices of face imprisonment, and you’ll spot a socialist leader doing it “for the people”.
  - RugnirViking 8y ago
    The UK. You cannot sell alchohol too cheaply. We have price controls per unit. There are literally thousands of such controls in most contries. California. They control the price of electricity in the state. And yes, these are laws. If you break them, you go to prison.
    - andrenth 8y ago
      Are you being purposefully dense? I’m not talking about isolated price controls in a few products. I’m talking about generalized price controls that cause shortages and hunger. I’m talking about going to jail for trying to sell food above the price you bought it from a producer. Do you honestly believe Norway, the UK and California are anything like that?
      - RugnirViking 8y ago
        But I am objecting to the idea that doing these things makes a country communist. I will refer again to the generalised food price controls during wartime in the USA and beyond - were these countries communist at that time? For another example of a country that has wide-ranging price controls on basic foodstuffs, look to the 2008 situation in mexico.
        andrenth 8y ago
        No, price controls are always counterproductive, but they don’t automatically make a country communist. I never said they did. In fact I never used the word communist in this discussion until now. Venezuela is socialist because it combines destructive economic measures with collectivist ideology, takeover of institutions like the Supreme Court by Party supporters, violent government-backed militias, fraudulent elections, cult of personality, etc. In summary, all the usual traits of a totalitarian left wing government.
        RugnirViking 8y ago
        Every single one of the things that you just listed are present in a many parts of the developing world. Most of these places are not considered communist. In fact I would say those things you said perfectly describe a country that is a Dictatorship - but there are lots of those that are not socialist. I assumed that you thought they were communist because you disagreed with my original post which claimed that they were not.
        andrenth 8y ago
        The term “dictatorship of the proletariat” is not a coincidence.
        RugnirViking 8y ago
        You seem to be making the argument that all dictatorships are communist. I can assure you this is not true, and would be surprised if you cannot think of any examples of non-communist dictators.
    - tomp 8y ago
      There’s a difference between min price control and max price control.
      - RugnirViking 8y ago
        That's why I gave two examples. One with a min control and one of a max price control.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    FDR during WW2? What about the USA during the 70s, by that famous socialist named Nixon.
isostatic 8y ago
In America, the general view seems to be that any move from politicians to move towards economies like Denmark and Sweden are "socialist". Therefore they conflated to have no difference between Denmark and Venezuela and the USSR. It's an extention of the absolutism in politics that has grown more and more, especially I think since 2008.
- soundwave106 8y ago
  I'm not sure why you were downvoted, this isn't entirely incorrect per se. In political dialog, too often "socialism" and "communism" are equated together in this country incorrectly. Venezuela and Sweden usually aren't directly compared together, but what happens is that failed authoritarian central-planned nations like Venezuela are often used as boogeymen against "socialism" in general, including socialist policies (like, say, a universal healthcare -- which is not socialist per se, but has some elements if there is large central planning) that have nothing to do with why Venezuela failed, and are implemented with some decent success in other countries. Heck our own current president even used Venezuela as a boogeyman against "socialism" in general fairly recently. (https://www.newsweek.com/trump-was-laughed-world-leaders-dissing-socialism-667785 https://www.newsweek.com/trump-was-laughed-world-leaders-dis...)

RugnirViking 8y ago

It nationalized oil - just like norway :) As for price controls, this happens all the time in countries in the west, ranging from farming subsidies to taxes on sugary foods. Another example where this often happens is minimum price controls per unit of alcohol Yes the government hasn't been great at human rights, but that doesn't make it socialist.

andrenth 8y ago
It’s nothing like Norway, no matter how many smiley faces you put over the citizens killed by the Venezuelan government. Price controls are a socialist measure. Name a country that has impelemented Venezuela-style price control, where business owners either sell at government-defined prices of face imprisonment, and you’ll spot a socialist leader doing it “for the people”.
- RugnirViking 8y ago
  The UK. You cannot sell alchohol too cheaply. We have price controls per unit. There are literally thousands of such controls in most contries. California. They control the price of electricity in the state. And yes, these are laws. If you break them, you go to prison.
  - andrenth 8y ago
    Are you being purposefully dense? I’m not talking about isolated price controls in a few products. I’m talking about generalized price controls that cause shortages and hunger. I’m talking about going to jail for trying to sell food above the price you bought it from a producer. Do you honestly believe Norway, the UK and California are anything like that?
    - RugnirViking 8y ago
      But I am objecting to the idea that doing these things makes a country communist. I will refer again to the generalised food price controls during wartime in the USA and beyond - were these countries communist at that time? For another example of a country that has wide-ranging price controls on basic foodstuffs, look to the 2008 situation in mexico.
      - andrenth 8y ago
        No, price controls are always counterproductive, but they don’t automatically make a country communist. I never said they did. In fact I never used the word communist in this discussion until now. Venezuela is socialist because it combines destructive economic measures with collectivist ideology, takeover of institutions like the Supreme Court by Party supporters, violent government-backed militias, fraudulent elections, cult of personality, etc. In summary, all the usual traits of a totalitarian left wing government.
        RugnirViking 8y ago
        Every single one of the things that you just listed are present in a many parts of the developing world. Most of these places are not considered communist. In fact I would say those things you said perfectly describe a country that is a Dictatorship - but there are lots of those that are not socialist. I assumed that you thought they were communist because you disagreed with my original post which claimed that they were not.
        andrenth 8y ago
        The term “dictatorship of the proletariat” is not a coincidence.
        RugnirViking 8y ago
        You seem to be making the argument that all dictatorships are communist. I can assure you this is not true, and would be surprised if you cannot think of any examples of non-communist dictators.
  - tomp 8y ago
    There’s a difference between min price control and max price control.
    - RugnirViking 8y ago
      That's why I gave two examples. One with a min control and one of a max price control.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  FDR during WW2? What about the USA during the 70s, by that famous socialist named Nixon.

isostatic 8y ago

In America, the general view seems to be that any move from politicians to move towards economies like Denmark and Sweden are "socialist". Therefore they conflated to have no difference between Denmark and Venezuela and the USSR. It's an extention of the absolutism in politics that has grown more and more, especially I think since 2008.

soundwave106 8y ago
I'm not sure why you were downvoted, this isn't entirely incorrect per se. In political dialog, too often "socialism" and "communism" are equated together in this country incorrectly. Venezuela and Sweden usually aren't directly compared together, but what happens is that failed authoritarian central-planned nations like Venezuela are often used as boogeymen against "socialism" in general, including socialist policies (like, say, a universal healthcare -- which is not socialist per se, but has some elements if there is large central planning) that have nothing to do with why Venezuela failed, and are implemented with some decent success in other countries. Heck our own current president even used Venezuela as a boogeyman against "socialism" in general fairly recently. (https://www.newsweek.com/trump-was-laughed-world-leaders-dissing-socialism-667785 https://www.newsweek.com/trump-was-laughed-world-leaders-dis...)