8 ms·

Welcome to the creative industry, it's not unusual for businesses with a design culture to operate like this. It would be pretty similar working for any big nam

by willyt 8y ago

Welcome to the creative industry, it's not unusual for businesses with a design culture to operate like this. It would be pretty similar working for any big name architect anywhere. Likewise in graphic design, product design etc... If you come from a design background you will be used to having your work taken apart at a presentation because it will have been happening since the first day of architecture/art/design school. It's a key skill to learn to be able to let go of the work you have done, stand back and analyse it dispassionately then go back and re-do things. After all, the criticism is meant to make the work better and better work gives you more of a sense of achievement. Yes, it was done in a way which was a little bit cheeky, but it doesn't sound mean to me. It can be drastically worse than this. When I was at architecture school in the 90's some tutors would actually compete to see if they could make students cry in presentations. Things like physically tearing up hand drawn plans in front of all the other students. I remember tutors going round the final year presentation at midnight and deciding the general standard wasn't good enough, phoning the people they thought needed to do more work, telling them they would fail and that they needed to get out of bed and work for another 24 hours. These were people that had been already been working super long hours for weeks to get their stuff done. Madness. It wasn't just my school that was like this either, it was much worse back then but there are still pockets of this culture in my industry. It is no wonder that back then architecture students in the UK had the highest rate of suicide.

eludwig 8y ago
This is so, so true! I went to Parsons School of Design in the late 70s and the final presentations were ungodly brutal. It was very normal for people to leave in tears. The good part about this (the bad part is obvious lol) is that many people who shouldn’t have been there and would not have made it in the commercial art business would go and do something else after these reviews. It was probably for the best. During my short career as an in-house illustrator, it was perfectly acceptable for the art director to kick your ass and generally abuse you. You learned to develop a thick skin really quickly!
sarreph 8y ago
> It's a key skill to learn to be able to let go of the work you have done, stand back and analyse it dispassionately then go back and re-do things. I wish this principle was adhered to across all industries where we (as individuals) get our 'work' reviewed. If you can't do your best and then be able to let go of it, it causes some serious pent-up anger and demotivation. I find myself slipping into 'brutalist feedback' mode (that I'm used to from creative work), before worrying about offending the recipient. I'm not sure if this is coincidental, but anecdotally I found that my biggest shift in being able to let my creative work 'go' was after reading The Power of Now[0] and The Chimp Paradox[1], and practicing mindfulness. Fundamentally, I think it's an ego issue as to why it's so hard to take criticism. I'm certainly not saying ego-death is a prerequisite, but instead to learn how to short-circuit your anger away from feedback as a result of taking it too personally. It is after all, not the work itself, but how it is received that you should be striving towards! [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Now [1] - https://chimpmanagement.com/the-chimp-paradox/ https://chimpmanagement.com/the-chimp-paradox/
thanatropism 8y ago
> having your work taken apart at a presentation What, I'm currently through this process with my Masters' dissertation. It's not exactly disheartening, but it's uncomfortable. Bonus, the math-heavy (I'm in computational physics) 70-page documentclass-article thing has a couple of asides that are so, so wrong (1.5 years ago I didn't really understand a lot of things) and it's embarassing to have them pointed out. But eh, I'm glad I'm going through this process. --- I'm an amateur student of philosophy and often want to blog about certain ideas I think I'm beginning to have. But I'm not sure enough to put my name on them! I wish I could hire a professional philosopher (many of which will be underemployed anyway) to look over my stuff and tell me when they're embarassingly wrong rather than just out of the box.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  It's like the academic version of being scolded about running into the street. You surely will not make those mistakes again. I remember my dissertation the same way. They weren't abusive, but they were not going to sugar coat when I was simply wrong. Felt pretty intense to be grilled like that but boy did it teach me a lot.
- inputcoffee 8y ago
  You are wise not to. Even with the help its a long way from years of grad school: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2012/02/the_mystery_of_the_millionaire_metaphysician_slate_republishes_one_of_the_greatest_magazine_stories_ever_written_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2012/02/the_my...
  - thanatropism 8y ago
    I know "amateur philosopher" is a trope, but I've read a lot and have tens of notebooks filled with gradually-with-time less-and-less cringeworthy stuff. I can also often point out to flaws of scholarship in scholarly material -- stuff jerry-rigged into an argument in open contradiction to what the original material says in context.
H1Supreme 8y ago
I worked in design for a little over 10 years. Having an art director "tear apart" your work is generally the best scenario. They can usually back up the critique with helpful insights. Regardless of tone. The most dreaded situations, for me, were clients who would tear something apart, but offered no helpful reason why. "Jazz it up" was something repeated an alarming number of times in meetings. I can also remember someone saying that they wanted us to use more colors since they were paying for a full color ad. Because, you know, that's what cost all the money. The colors.
- willyt 8y ago
  > Having an art director "tear apart" your work is generally the best scenario. They can usually back up the critique with helpful insights. Regardless of tone. Definitely, and in my professional career I have never had my work thrown out in a way which made me feel bad. I have been ignored a few times only to be proved right a few weeks later though!
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Yes, harsh but valid criticism is one thing, if the director/instructor is legitimately an expert and is truly trying to make you better. If he is only feeding his own ego by being an asshole, it's better to get away. It can be hard to tell the difference, especially if you are young.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  Everyone thinks they're a designer because they can see things with their eyes. In reality they have no clue wha is going on. As a developer who is acutely aware of my shortcomings in design it hurts to sit in client meetings with designers. The whole process is totally back to front on about 95% of the projects I have worked on.
- jaredklewis 8y ago
  Ah, yes, “Jazz it up,” cousin of “Make it pop.” http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell
KKKKkkkk1 8y ago
The post is talking about a situation where engineers get the first feedback on their work 3 months after they started, and it turns out the work is "all wrong". And then the work is discarded and replaced with a fake demo. This is entirely different than what you describe, which is a culture of tough but objective criticism.
- dajohnson89 8y ago
  Thank you for pointing this out. Not getting any feedback for 3 months and then getting ripped apart in front of external stakeholders sounds like a horrible place to work.
  - engi_nerd 8y ago
    Been there, done that. My "panel member" for our telemetry and power design review was another electrical engineer who was senior to me. He was supposed to give me feedback leading up to the review, but he didn't. So when the design review happened, he shredded me in front of our customers so badly that the customers actually complained about him to my senior managers. It was indeed a horrible place to work.
gdubs 8y ago
I’ll never forget my college drawing professor. It was a hard class to get into, and I was young and trying to keep up. He came over to my easel, stroked his chin, and said, “yea, looks good.” Pauses, steps back and says, “I think it can use one little change, may I?” He then takes a white paint brush and proceeds to erase my entire drawing with it. “Ah, much better”, he says. He was a total asshole but had a cult like following. Those of us remaining by the end of the semester loved him. To this day I credit that class with dramatically improving my drawing skills, but it definitely wasn’t for everyone.
- debt 8y ago
  Fostering excellence means weeding out the crap as that just brings everyone down and makes everyone else suck. Even letting minor defects pass implicitly creates a culture where hey minor defects are okay.
- dsego 8y ago
  Reminds me of the movie Whiplash (“Were you rushing or were you dragging?”).
  - sizzzzlerz 8y ago
    Without the cymbal throwing, of course.
- lovich 8y ago
  That sounds like Stockholm syndrome. Telling you your work was bad or even garbage is one thing. Doing a bait and switch in conversation and then destroying someone else's work/property is just abusive
- andyidsinga 8y ago
  I wonder what he would have said if you responded : "interesting, I think that's your best work" <with sly grin> ...harsh criticism can be hard to take, I often try (and fail) to inject some humor into the situation to take the edge off.
- pcwalton 8y ago
grivescorbett 8y ago
100% this. I've been through a BFA conservatory program. Having your work torn apart, respectfully, in public happens every single day. When I moved to the corporate world I was shocked that no one knew how to give or receive feedback. I've seen and given a few talks on how this activity can by applied in a corporate setting.
mistrial9 8y ago
this is damaged behavior -- you are seriously projecting "that is the way it is" and then casually drop a line about high rates of suicide? wtf
- vokep 8y ago
  I think the suicide line was specifically to highlight that despite that being "the way it is", it has very real unacceptable consequences.
projectramo 8y ago
I know what you mean. To instill creativity in my direct reports, I have to smack them in the face when they fail to demonstrate sufficient creativity. I know it sounds harsh, but they're developing great callouses on their face which they would not have obtained had it not been for my unorthodox training. A lot of people might think I should apologize, but ask them in my presence if they would rather work elsewhere!
- myth_buster 8y ago
  /s
wenc 8y ago
In engineering, we typically have (mostly) logical discussions on the merits of designs. There are sometimes strong opinions, but they are typically backed by non-subjective data. Subjectivity is frowned upon. When I started getting into the arts, I was introduced to the culture of "workshopping" pieces, i.e. have my work criticized. It was disorienting at first, but the honest feedback was very useful plus it helped me develop a thick skin. It helped me get better fast.
sizzle 8y ago
State of design in tech today:https://youtu.be/F6Srzcm8EEg https://youtu.be/F6Srzcm8EEg

by willyt 8y ago

eludwig 8y ago

This is so, so true! I went to Parsons School of Design in the late 70s and the final presentations were ungodly brutal. It was very normal for people to leave in tears. The good part about this (the bad part is obvious lol) is that many people who shouldn’t have been there and would not have made it in the commercial art business would go and do something else after these reviews. It was probably for the best. During my short career as an in-house illustrator, it was perfectly acceptable for the art director to kick your ass and generally abuse you. You learned to develop a thick skin really quickly!

sarreph 8y ago

> It's a key skill to learn to be able to let go of the work you have done, stand back and analyse it dispassionately then go back and re-do things. I wish this principle was adhered to across all industries where we (as individuals) get our 'work' reviewed. If you can't do your best and then be able to let go of it, it causes some serious pent-up anger and demotivation. I find myself slipping into 'brutalist feedback' mode (that I'm used to from creative work), before worrying about offending the recipient. I'm not sure if this is coincidental, but anecdotally I found that my biggest shift in being able to let my creative work 'go' was after reading The Power of Now[0] and The Chimp Paradox[1], and practicing mindfulness. Fundamentally, I think it's an ego issue as to why it's so hard to take criticism. I'm certainly not saying ego-death is a prerequisite, but instead to learn how to short-circuit your anger away from feedback as a result of taking it too personally. It is after all, not the work itself, but how it is received that you should be striving towards! [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Now [1] - https://chimpmanagement.com/the-chimp-paradox/ https://chimpmanagement.com/the-chimp-paradox/

thanatropism 8y ago

> having your work taken apart at a presentation What, I'm currently through this process with my Masters' dissertation. It's not exactly disheartening, but it's uncomfortable. Bonus, the math-heavy (I'm in computational physics) 70-page documentclass-article thing has a couple of asides that are so, so wrong (1.5 years ago I didn't really understand a lot of things) and it's embarassing to have them pointed out. But eh, I'm glad I'm going through this process. --- I'm an amateur student of philosophy and often want to blog about certain ideas I think I'm beginning to have. But I'm not sure enough to put my name on them! I wish I could hire a professional philosopher (many of which will be underemployed anyway) to look over my stuff and tell me when they're embarassingly wrong rather than just out of the box.

Waterluvian 8y ago
It's like the academic version of being scolded about running into the street. You surely will not make those mistakes again. I remember my dissertation the same way. They weren't abusive, but they were not going to sugar coat when I was simply wrong. Felt pretty intense to be grilled like that but boy did it teach me a lot.
inputcoffee 8y ago
You are wise not to. Even with the help its a long way from years of grad school: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2012/02/the_mystery_of_the_millionaire_metaphysician_slate_republishes_one_of_the_greatest_magazine_stories_ever_written_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2012/02/the_my...
- thanatropism 8y ago
  I know "amateur philosopher" is a trope, but I've read a lot and have tens of notebooks filled with gradually-with-time less-and-less cringeworthy stuff. I can also often point out to flaws of scholarship in scholarly material -- stuff jerry-rigged into an argument in open contradiction to what the original material says in context.

H1Supreme 8y ago

I worked in design for a little over 10 years. Having an art director "tear apart" your work is generally the best scenario. They can usually back up the critique with helpful insights. Regardless of tone. The most dreaded situations, for me, were clients who would tear something apart, but offered no helpful reason why. "Jazz it up" was something repeated an alarming number of times in meetings. I can also remember someone saying that they wanted us to use more colors since they were paying for a full color ad. Because, you know, that's what cost all the money. The colors.

willyt 8y ago
> Having an art director "tear apart" your work is generally the best scenario. They can usually back up the critique with helpful insights. Regardless of tone. Definitely, and in my professional career I have never had my work thrown out in a way which made me feel bad. I have been ignored a few times only to be proved right a few weeks later though!
- ams6110 8y ago
  Yes, harsh but valid criticism is one thing, if the director/instructor is legitimately an expert and is truly trying to make you better. If he is only feeding his own ego by being an asshole, it's better to get away. It can be hard to tell the difference, especially if you are young.
rorykoehler 8y ago
Everyone thinks they're a designer because they can see things with their eyes. In reality they have no clue wha is going on. As a developer who is acutely aware of my shortcomings in design it hurts to sit in client meetings with designers. The whole process is totally back to front on about 95% of the projects I have worked on.
jaredklewis 8y ago
Ah, yes, “Jazz it up,” cousin of “Make it pop.” http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

KKKKkkkk1 8y ago

The post is talking about a situation where engineers get the first feedback on their work 3 months after they started, and it turns out the work is "all wrong". And then the work is discarded and replaced with a fake demo. This is entirely different than what you describe, which is a culture of tough but objective criticism.

dajohnson89 8y ago
Thank you for pointing this out. Not getting any feedback for 3 months and then getting ripped apart in front of external stakeholders sounds like a horrible place to work.
- engi_nerd 8y ago
  Been there, done that. My "panel member" for our telemetry and power design review was another electrical engineer who was senior to me. He was supposed to give me feedback leading up to the review, but he didn't. So when the design review happened, he shredded me in front of our customers so badly that the customers actually complained about him to my senior managers. It was indeed a horrible place to work.

gdubs 8y ago

I’ll never forget my college drawing professor. It was a hard class to get into, and I was young and trying to keep up. He came over to my easel, stroked his chin, and said, “yea, looks good.” Pauses, steps back and says, “I think it can use one little change, may I?” He then takes a white paint brush and proceeds to erase my entire drawing with it. “Ah, much better”, he says. He was a total asshole but had a cult like following. Those of us remaining by the end of the semester loved him. To this day I credit that class with dramatically improving my drawing skills, but it definitely wasn’t for everyone.

debt 8y ago
Fostering excellence means weeding out the crap as that just brings everyone down and makes everyone else suck. Even letting minor defects pass implicitly creates a culture where hey minor defects are okay.
dsego 8y ago
Reminds me of the movie Whiplash (“Were you rushing or were you dragging?”).
- sizzzzlerz 8y ago
  Without the cymbal throwing, of course.
lovich 8y ago
That sounds like Stockholm syndrome. Telling you your work was bad or even garbage is one thing. Doing a bait and switch in conversation and then destroying someone else's work/property is just abusive
andyidsinga 8y ago
I wonder what he would have said if you responded : "interesting, I think that's your best work" <with sly grin> ...harsh criticism can be hard to take, I often try (and fail) to inject some humor into the situation to take the edge off.
pcwalton 8y ago

grivescorbett 8y ago

100% this. I've been through a BFA conservatory program. Having your work torn apart, respectfully, in public happens every single day. When I moved to the corporate world I was shocked that no one knew how to give or receive feedback. I've seen and given a few talks on how this activity can by applied in a corporate setting.

mistrial9 8y ago

this is damaged behavior -- you are seriously projecting "that is the way it is" and then casually drop a line about high rates of suicide? wtf

vokep 8y ago
I think the suicide line was specifically to highlight that despite that being "the way it is", it has very real unacceptable consequences.

projectramo 8y ago

I know what you mean. To instill creativity in my direct reports, I have to smack them in the face when they fail to demonstrate sufficient creativity. I know it sounds harsh, but they're developing great callouses on their face which they would not have obtained had it not been for my unorthodox training. A lot of people might think I should apologize, but ask them in my presence if they would rather work elsewhere!

myth_buster 8y ago
/s

wenc 8y ago

In engineering, we typically have (mostly) logical discussions on the merits of designs. There are sometimes strong opinions, but they are typically backed by non-subjective data. Subjectivity is frowned upon. When I started getting into the arts, I was introduced to the culture of "workshopping" pieces, i.e. have my work criticized. It was disorienting at first, but the honest feedback was very useful plus it helped me develop a thick skin. It helped me get better fast.

sizzle 8y ago

State of design in tech today:https://youtu.be/F6Srzcm8EEg https://youtu.be/F6Srzcm8EEg