5 ms·

I don't know if this helps, but I personally find coding interview practice sites/problems to be extremely boring, difficult, not fun, and frustrating to work o

by godot 8y ago

I don't know if this helps, but I personally find coding interview practice sites/problems to be extremely boring, difficult, not fun, and frustrating to work on. I'm saying this as a 13-years-of-experience software engineer; I've been called a rock star or ninja or something similar in almost every company and team I've worked in (big and small), and throughout my entire career and the numerous times I've job-hunted, I have never passed a single interview that involved those types of questions. (I've interviewed at both Google and Facebook, both more than once, at different points of my career, with no success) I pretty much always end up at a company where I had a really easy interview and we just talked about my experience and projects. I am (I'd like to think; and I think my coworkers mostly agree) good at everything involved in a software engineering job (building things, architecting things, communication, working well with others), but I absolutely cannot solve those whiteboard interview problems, especially during the interview. I saw that itamarst posted a link for a list of companies who don't do "whiteboard interviews" type of questions. If you believe you're a good dev and can build stuff and just hate those interviews, I would encourage you to start there and try interviewing at those companies and land your first professional job, and see if you're really cut out for a software engineer role.

simonbarker87 8y ago
> “really easy interview and we just talked about my experience and projects“ This is what interviewing is like in 99% of other sectors, even engineering. You might be asked some competency based questions at a larger organisation but the whole “dance like a monkey in a high pressure environment while we watch” whiteboard/coding test feels like cruel and unusual punishment to me that is nothing like the job of actually programming.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  It is testing for people who can solve the below 5 percent of real problems under immense pressure. Even development crunch does not work like these tests. The trouble is, the skillet to do so is not actually overlapping with the one needed for prolonged deep or repetitive work. So you end up hiring either fresh heads from such pressuring environments, super geniuses (yeah right) or people who learned to pass and game these tests.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  That's not true. I've interviewed for many engineering jobs and lots of them involved solving puzzle-like problems on a whiteboard.
  - simonbarker87 8y ago
    Are you US based? It may be a cultural thing as I have nevered heard of any engineers (and I know a good few dozen) who have had to do anything like that.
    - freehunter 8y ago
      It's not even a culturally US-based thing. If anything, it might be the culture of some specific places in the US, likely places where programmers are dime-a-dozen and you can afford to exclude good people because great people are applying too. In the Midwest or Appalachia or most places in the South and most places in the prairie, companies are just glad someone is applying. I have absolutely no hard evidence to back this up other than anecdotes from my network of colleagues, but the only places I've ever heard of doing programming challenges during an interview is the kind of places where programmers collect en masse. SV, Seattle, Austin, NYC, Boston, the places where when you post a CS job, you expect thousands of qualified candidates to apply.
  - elbrian 8y ago
    Your anecdotal experience differing from OP's does not make what he said inherently untrue.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- michaelt 8y ago
  the whole “dance like a monkey in a high pressure environment while we watch” whiteboard/coding test feels like cruel and unusual punishment to me When I was a teenager I attended a group interview for a retail job, and we were put into groups and told to design a TV advert for the retailer then act it out in front of the other interviewees. Of course my group decided to do a song. Once you've been inoculated by having to sing in front of a room of 30 people, whiteboard coding in front of 2 people feels downright respectful and dignified :)
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  It's a hazing ritual. Let's call it what it is.
sarink 8y ago
100% agree with this
mattlondon 8y ago
+1 to this. Similar story for me. Although I wont go so far as saying I am a rockstar I do have a reputation for building solid, maintainable, reliable code that works even though I have struggled in the high-pressure whiteboarding interviews (I'm currently at a company that is well-known/infamous for whiteboarding interviews too). There are different roles other than "software engineer" that are programming based, even at FANG-style companies (in my personal experience). At my current employer although I spend my entire day designing/writing/debugging code using the same tools, infrastructure, programming languages, and expectations on code-standards/quality etc I am not a "software engineer" as far as my job role goes. My role still has "engineer" in the title, but the expectations for the purest CS knowledge were slightly lower and the interviews were basically a chat about work I had done elsewhere and a few general questions around experience and knowledge (salary/total comp is about ~85% what a software engineer gets) tl;dr - you dont have to be a "software engineer" to program for a living
- lylecubed 8y ago
  > Similar story for me. Another +1 here. I got so sick of programming interviews that I went freelance. If at any time a potential client suggests I need to do a whiteboard style interview, I decline and offer to work for them for a week at half price.
  - ckib16 8y ago
    That's a great tactic. Keeps the ball rolling on the negotiation & also shows them your competence in a real way. Thanks for sharing.
- PretzelFisch 8y ago
  I am finding the same kind of trouble on my job hunt what kind of roles should I be looking for?
sankyc 8y ago
This is relatable and makes a lot of sense! Can you direct us to the link or any list of companies which don't have whiteboard tests or competitive coding tests? It would be really useful for OP and most of us.
- godot 8y ago
  The message I referred to is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17589684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17589684 (and the link to the list is https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards )
ordinaryperson 8y ago
Can't agree with this enough. Over 15 years professional experience here, master's degree in CS, and I often struggle with whiteboarding. Looking for a new job now and some of the questions I've been asked: 1. Overlapping maximal interval sets (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/find-the-point-where-maximum-intervals-overlap/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/find-the-point-where-maximum-i...) 2. Print a matrix in a spiral form (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/print-a-given-matrix-in-spiral-form/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/print-a-given-matrix-in-spiral...) 3. Implement setInterval using setTimeout (recursion) 4. Shorten a string of repeated letters (dddbbbaa) into numerical format (3d3b2a). also write function to reverse this process 5. Given this JSON input, write an API in NodeJS 6. Write an algorithm to convert decimals to Roman numerals (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/converting-decimal-number-lying-between-1-to-3999-to-roman-numerals/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/converting-decimal-number-lyin...) 7. Convert from prefix to postfix notation (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/prefix-postfix-conversion/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/prefix-postfix-conversion/) I could go on and on. So stupid. How does answering any of these on the fly signal ability as a programmer? The take-home tests are the least offensive to me, because at least they simulate what it's like to work on a real project (somewhat). The HackerRank.com tests aren't any better than live whiteboarding -- why can't I look stuff up (they disable copying and pasting)? Are you not allowed to look stuff up at a real job? All these stupid questions implicitly assume the same thing: the most important developer skill is memorizing a large corpus of algorithms to obscure problems. Trust me, it's not. It'll probably take one of the FANG companies to start de-emphasizing this nonsense before everyone else stops mimicking them.
LaPingvino 8y ago
When I had to get the right people for a job, I made the sifting assignment simply: write an app that consumes a JSON API. I got an Indian guy with a long CV who never even tried, and a guy who machine translated the Dutch ad and sailed through this question. Guess who got the job...

by godot 8y ago

simonbarker87 8y ago

> “really easy interview and we just talked about my experience and projects“ This is what interviewing is like in 99% of other sectors, even engineering. You might be asked some competency based questions at a larger organisation but the whole “dance like a monkey in a high pressure environment while we watch” whiteboard/coding test feels like cruel and unusual punishment to me that is nothing like the job of actually programming.

AstralStorm 8y ago
It is testing for people who can solve the below 5 percent of real problems under immense pressure. Even development crunch does not work like these tests. The trouble is, the skillet to do so is not actually overlapping with the one needed for prolonged deep or repetitive work. So you end up hiring either fresh heads from such pressuring environments, super geniuses (yeah right) or people who learned to pass and game these tests.
IshKebab 8y ago
That's not true. I've interviewed for many engineering jobs and lots of them involved solving puzzle-like problems on a whiteboard.
- simonbarker87 8y ago
  Are you US based? It may be a cultural thing as I have nevered heard of any engineers (and I know a good few dozen) who have had to do anything like that.
  - freehunter 8y ago
    It's not even a culturally US-based thing. If anything, it might be the culture of some specific places in the US, likely places where programmers are dime-a-dozen and you can afford to exclude good people because great people are applying too. In the Midwest or Appalachia or most places in the South and most places in the prairie, companies are just glad someone is applying. I have absolutely no hard evidence to back this up other than anecdotes from my network of colleagues, but the only places I've ever heard of doing programming challenges during an interview is the kind of places where programmers collect en masse. SV, Seattle, Austin, NYC, Boston, the places where when you post a CS job, you expect thousands of qualified candidates to apply.
- elbrian 8y ago
  Your anecdotal experience differing from OP's does not make what he said inherently untrue.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
michaelt 8y ago
the whole “dance like a monkey in a high pressure environment while we watch” whiteboard/coding test feels like cruel and unusual punishment to me When I was a teenager I attended a group interview for a retail job, and we were put into groups and told to design a TV advert for the retailer then act it out in front of the other interviewees. Of course my group decided to do a song. Once you've been inoculated by having to sing in front of a room of 30 people, whiteboard coding in front of 2 people feels downright respectful and dignified :)
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
It's a hazing ritual. Let's call it what it is.

sarink 8y ago

100% agree with this

mattlondon 8y ago

+1 to this. Similar story for me. Although I wont go so far as saying I am a rockstar I do have a reputation for building solid, maintainable, reliable code that works even though I have struggled in the high-pressure whiteboarding interviews (I'm currently at a company that is well-known/infamous for whiteboarding interviews too). There are different roles other than "software engineer" that are programming based, even at FANG-style companies (in my personal experience). At my current employer although I spend my entire day designing/writing/debugging code using the same tools, infrastructure, programming languages, and expectations on code-standards/quality etc I am not a "software engineer" as far as my job role goes. My role still has "engineer" in the title, but the expectations for the purest CS knowledge were slightly lower and the interviews were basically a chat about work I had done elsewhere and a few general questions around experience and knowledge (salary/total comp is about ~85% what a software engineer gets) tl;dr - you dont have to be a "software engineer" to program for a living

lylecubed 8y ago
> Similar story for me. Another +1 here. I got so sick of programming interviews that I went freelance. If at any time a potential client suggests I need to do a whiteboard style interview, I decline and offer to work for them for a week at half price.
- ckib16 8y ago
  That's a great tactic. Keeps the ball rolling on the negotiation & also shows them your competence in a real way. Thanks for sharing.
PretzelFisch 8y ago
I am finding the same kind of trouble on my job hunt what kind of roles should I be looking for?

sankyc 8y ago

This is relatable and makes a lot of sense! Can you direct us to the link or any list of companies which don't have whiteboard tests or competitive coding tests? It would be really useful for OP and most of us.

godot 8y ago
The message I referred to is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17589684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17589684 (and the link to the list is https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards https://github.com/poteto/hiring-without-whiteboards )

ordinaryperson 8y ago

Can't agree with this enough. Over 15 years professional experience here, master's degree in CS, and I often struggle with whiteboarding. Looking for a new job now and some of the questions I've been asked: 1. Overlapping maximal interval sets (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/find-the-point-where-maximum-intervals-overlap/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/find-the-point-where-maximum-i...) 2. Print a matrix in a spiral form (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/print-a-given-matrix-in-spiral-form/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/print-a-given-matrix-in-spiral...) 3. Implement setInterval using setTimeout (recursion) 4. Shorten a string of repeated letters (dddbbbaa) into numerical format (3d3b2a). also write function to reverse this process 5. Given this JSON input, write an API in NodeJS 6. Write an algorithm to convert decimals to Roman numerals (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/converting-decimal-number-lying-between-1-to-3999-to-roman-numerals/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/converting-decimal-number-lyin...) 7. Convert from prefix to postfix notation (https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/prefix-postfix-conversion/ https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/prefix-postfix-conversion/) I could go on and on. So stupid. How does answering any of these on the fly signal ability as a programmer? The take-home tests are the least offensive to me, because at least they simulate what it's like to work on a real project (somewhat). The HackerRank.com tests aren't any better than live whiteboarding -- why can't I look stuff up (they disable copying and pasting)? Are you not allowed to look stuff up at a real job? All these stupid questions implicitly assume the same thing: the most important developer skill is memorizing a large corpus of algorithms to obscure problems. Trust me, it's not. It'll probably take one of the FANG companies to start de-emphasizing this nonsense before everyone else stops mimicking them.

LaPingvino 8y ago

When I had to get the right people for a job, I made the sifting assignment simply: write an app that consumes a JSON API. I got an Indian guy with a long CV who never even tried, and a guy who machine translated the Dutch ad and sailed through this question. Guess who got the job...