8 ms·

For the majority of people, the following should get you straightened out: Get your diet straightened out. Stop eating so many refined carbohydrates. Eat some

• majos 8y ago
  I promise I am not pursuing the tiresome argumentative tactic of demanding formal sources as a way to postpone defeat. But, seriously, do you have a source for > The majority of depression cases are relatively self-induced and could be fixed with simple behaviour modifications. I am very wary of telling a depressed person that it's probably just a matter of making the right lifestyle tweaks.
  • newplagiarist 8y ago
    I can't agree with this statement more, espousing the tired pull yourself up by your bootstrap motto for clinically depressed people is dangerous.
    • rednerrus 8y ago
      If we can’t have an honest discussion about the underlying causes of the depression epidemic, we are never going to get to a place where we can fix it.
      • Etheryte 8y ago
        Passing your personal opinions as facts doesn't make for an honest discussion. The query to back up your claims with some sort of sources is very reasonable.
        • mtalantikite 8y ago
          I’m not sure it’s just an opinion, there is a plethora of research showing the effects of exercise on depression. There are certainly people that are clinically depressed that are also physically active (some friends of mine are in that group). OP states as much. But I agree with OP, if we’re not going to talk about the low hanging fruit of exercise, diet, and sleep, we’re not going to get anywhere with combating depression. Edit: here’s just one of many studies (there are literally hundreds of them) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/
          • mercer 8y ago
            I completely agree that these are important things to discuss. I just wish OP had left out the 'majority of cases' statement, because it doesn't really add much to his (valuable) point and hits a nerve with many people.
          • DanBC 8y ago
            > there is a plethora of research showing the effects of exercise on depression. Yes, there is. It all shows that exercise is moderately better than nothing as a treatment for depression, unless you only include good quality trials in which case the effectiveness drops off. https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr... > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. [...] > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive.
            • mtalantikite 8y ago
    • agumonkey 8y ago
      I've been suffering from extreme depression in 2014[1]. I'd still say the 'bootstrap' thing has a bit of truth. It's because the symptom of cured depression is that little stem of inner desire. Almost no one can restore it. Now I wouldn't say it in a blaming tone. I'd just add 1) you're hurt, you need to rest 2) don't drown so keep as much things you can in check (rhythm, sunlight, diet, movement) even it's just one thing do it, then be proud and rest again 3) you can't see it now but things will improve, just slowly. Again take your time, but keep in mind : slow and steady, you'll be back I promise
  • paradroid 8y ago
    He's not wrong, but he's not taking into consideration the fact that it's a feedback loop. It's the same perspective as chiding the homeless for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. They are in too much mental poverty to do it.
    • DoreenMichele 8y ago
      If only "mental poverty" were the entire problem for homeless individuals, instead of actual poverty, classism, lack of affordable housing and, typically, a host of substantial personal problems.
      • memelord69 8y ago
        JUST GET A HOUSE LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
        • DoreenMichele 8y ago
          "Please don't use uppercase for emphasis." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html For every 100 families living in poverty on the West Coast, there are no more than 30 affordable homes https://www.geekwire.com/2018/every-100-families-living-poverty-west-coast-no-30-affordable-homes/ https://www.geekwire.com/2018/every-100-families-living-pove...
          • paradroid 8y ago
            He's using internet speak. Since it can't be communicated as such in any other way, it's likely an exception, although to someone who hasn't been read in it probably reads funny.
            • DoreenMichele 8y ago
              The commenter in question has been here 15 days and has left 4 comments. Other than the gendered term "lord" that is part of the username, I see no indication of gender. I would be curious how you determined it. I am unaware of an exception in the official HN guidelines that allow for all caps for "internet speak." Perhaps you could advise me where you found that? Perhaps you could also clarify what on earth the comment even meant. I am failing to comprehend if it is mocking homeless individuals or mocking toxic attitudes towards them or doing something else entirely. Thank you.
  • rednerrus 8y ago
    Part of the reason why I quantified it. There are legitimate cases of depression caused by non-self-inflicted chemical imbalances. I’m not advocating for people who are currently taking anti-depressants to drop their pills tomorrow. The studies (I’m on the train so I’m not trying to cite these sources, google it) show that lifestyle changes with antidepressants is much more effective than antidepressants alone. Even if you have a non-self-inflicted chemical imbalance, your shrink is likely to prescribe all of the things I listed. Source: my shrink, and every shrink worth their salt.
    • WalterGR 8y ago
      Part of the reason why I quantified it. You qualified it. If you quantified it, you would have provided numbers backing up your argument.
      • rednerrus 8y ago
        Fewer than 30% of people with MDD episodes have treatment resistance depression. The majority of people with depression respond to treatment. The efficacy of diet, exercise, and sleep are on par with drugs.
        • AstralStorm 8y ago
          You mean low and not additive, right?
        • DanBC 8y ago
          > The efficacy of diet, exercise, and sleep are on par with drugs This is simply untrue.
    • phnk 8y ago
      Apologies for bluntness, but you clearly have no idea of what you are talking about. The false dichotomy between "self-induced" and "non-self-inflicted [sic]" is something that your "shrink" would have dismissed in the first minutes of honest conversation, before turning to your list of lifestyle adjustments and pointing out that there is a wide range of responses to them. The kind of baseless speculation that you offer, followed by the obligatory confirmation-bias sequence, is precisely how some people end up treating psychiatric illness in highly neglectful and harmful ways.
  • majewsky 8y ago
    > I am very wary of telling a depressed person that it's probably just a matter of making the right lifestyle tweaks. I don't see rednerrus advocating that. But if what they say is true, then psychotherapists need to know that, and plan their therapies accordingly.
    • rednerrus 8y ago
      Any PDoc you see will start with these things for the majority of “depression” patients. Therapists are more cautious about any sort of prescribing, even if it’s lifestyle prescriptions.
  • baccheion 8y ago
    Tests like NutrEval can verify/refute the presence of nutrient deficiencies, and combined with genetic testing and a comprehensive hormone panel (includes thyroid panel), provide clarity/perspective/insight.
• aklemm 8y ago
  I need to improve dramatically in every single area you've listed here, but I'm far from depressed and have no anxiety problems. On the other hand, a person very close to me takes great care to manage all these important health factors, but it doesn't really move the needle in terms of helping this person's depression.
  • rednerrus 8y ago
    That’s exactly why I quantified it. There are people who have legitimate chemical imbalance induced depression.
    • greglindahl 8y ago
      Have you ever asked a mental health professional if your original statement, quantified and all, is a smart thing to say?
      • majewsky 8y ago
        In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17571572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17571572 they reference their "shrink" as a source, which according to my dictionary is a colloquial term for a psychotherapist.
      • 6nf 8y ago
        It is. I have 3 psychologist in the family, two of them with decades of clinical experience specifically with depression. The first day they see a patient with depression, they go through this list: - Make sure your sleep routine is good. Same bed time every day, same amount of sleep every day, not too little or too much. 7-9 hours depending on what works for you - Alcohol is bad for depression, this is not controversial. - Exercise is very important to help stabilise your mood. This is not controversial. - Get your vitamin D levels tested, many people are low and this is easy to fix and known to worsen depression. - Make sure your diet is consistent and healthy. This is the baseline treatment for everyone with depression. After you take care of these basics you go to the next level which would typcially involve therapy (CBT or psychotherapy) and that may or may not include medications like SSRIs etc.
• DoreenMichele 8y ago
  The specifics here is not bad advice, but the framing sucks big time. A lot can be done with diet, exercise and lifestyle changes. But the assertion that this means depression is mostly "self induced" is pretty sucktastic. If nothing else, a lot of lifestyle habits are things learned in childhood, which weren't chosen per se.
• extralego 8y ago
  You think extended unemployment followed by a minimum wage job then an injury with no health insurance could have anything to do with it? Or unrelated?
  • rednerrus 8y ago
    That sounds stressful. How was your diet, sleep and exercise while you were going through those rough times?
    • extralego 8y ago
      Diet: I am not much of a cook so I eat simple; eggs and oatmeal with raisins sugar or life cereal and banana for breakfast, sandwiches for lunch most days and go out to eat for dinner and always have meat and vegetables, and often rice. This is how I have always eaten and input from health-conscious people is that I do well with it. I only drink water. No soda, juice, or alcohol and I don’t smoke. Sleep: This was the worst part. I layed awake worrying a lot, which would sometimes prompt me to get up and start working on something in the night. It would throw me off schedule. A sleep schedule in sync with others is useful so I had to force myself to wake up early with the alarm some days. Other days I would opt for the 7 hours anyways. Exercise: I like running but hate the time it takes but I still had a good early morning running routine for about 3 months; even got an elliptical at a yard sale after my shin splints started up. It was nice but just added to the time that I was not putting into problem solving. Giving it up merely gave me more time and energy. I fear we have developed a habit of ignoring the problems that are not immediately applicable to our individual threshold of acceptable realities and are not socially encouragable in pleasant conversation. I probably would not have this perspective available to me without a good background in history and sociology + my experiences. I honestly hope I change my mind one day.
• clumsysmurf 8y ago
  I do all these things, and more. They all help, even though its like pushing water uphill - but I still suffer major depression. I don't even get the runner's high anymore. Maybe at this point, its been going on long enough my brain is irreversibly damaged. Right now, I feel like I'm stuck in the US, a society where the powerful bully the weak : from the president on down. I've come to the conclusion I will die destitute and alone, younger than I thought I would. All I see is 'dog eat dog' and the results of extreme individualism : the decay of community. When I read about the blue zones, and the moais of the Okinawans, I wonder if something like that would help. But I isolate myself because I know, its tough being around people that are depressed.
  • rednerrus 8y ago
    Are you getting help from a professional, therapist, Primary Care Provider, or Psychiatrist? If not, find one. They can help. I was where you are and now I feel better. Ask them to recommend a group. You can go be around people who understand that you’re depressed and want to help, until you don’t feel like isolation is necessary. This is completely anecdotal and kind of besides the point. The two things that were most helpful to me, in the long term, were magnesium supplements and a gratitude journal. Magnesium has helped straighten out a lot of my anxiety and sleeping issues. Writing down five things everyday has really helped put things in perspective. I now realize how many of the things going on around me are magic. Lights in your house, massive grocery stores full of food, hot water that comes out of the tap, airplanes and cars, the internet, cellphones, most of the world’s knowledge in your pocket. It started to wear new paths in my brain. Seriously, six or eight weeks of this and my perspective changed. The world is full of really amazing, really awesome shit. It sounds like you may be spending a lot of time on social media, where unproductive inflammatory messages run on a loop, wearing the wrong kind of tracks in your brain. Try an experiment, find a non-political hobby and stick to forums about that instead of news and politics for a while and see if that helps. Try two weeks without Facebook and Twitter. If you’re really worried the world is only getting worse, read Stephen Pinker’s “The Better Angels of Our Nature”. He argues, pretty convincingly that we are living in the safest time in history and the trend is towards more safety and less dog eat dog. I empathize with your desire for community and perspective regarding its decay. While we don’t have as much default real life community as we used to, it does still exist. I don’t know what you’re interested in or what your geography is but there are still groups of like minded people who get together to do like minded stuff. There are knitting circles, hackathons, bowling leagues, Boy Scouts, meetups, meditation circles, church, game nights, pub quiz, BINGO with the Eagles, Ultimate leagues, book clubs, support groups, walking clubs, and 100s of others all going on now. It takes a little more work to find them, but these communities are usually very welcoming.
• nerdponx 8y ago
  You're right on all counts, but in my experience some of these behaviors are symptoms of depression, rather than causes. It's a vicious cycle. So let me add one more thing to your list: Go to therapy. Most people carry lots of stress around with them. Many people silently bear feelings they don't even realize they are having, or are not emotionally literate enough to express them. They might not have family or friends can listen effectively. Etc. Having a safe place to just "talk things out" is tremendously important. Carrying around un-expressed feelings almost invariably leads to stress. There are significant, physical, negative effects of chronic stress. Low-level depression follows, and then you end up in these behaviors that reinforce the stress-depression cycle. Not to mention the fact that many people bear all sorts of traumas (real, imagined, mild, severe) from their pasts, especially childhood. These things can stay with a person for their whole life, if they aren't addressed.
  • rednerrus 8y ago
    Good call.
• krsdcbl 8y ago
  For the most part you are describing things that are a symptom of depression themselves. It is a vicious circle alright, but the "it's your own fault just make your life better" approach is exactly what depressed people worry about constantly, and downright cynical in my opinion.