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A $225 GPS spoofer can send sat-nav-guided vehicles into oncoming traffic
- matthewmacleod 8y agoWhile the whole thing is interesting (mostly because of the design of the spoofer rather than it being anything else that's new) this headline is deliberately misleading.
- Robotbeat 8y ago> this headline is deliberately misleading. I see what you did there... ;)
- xPhobophobia 8y agoAnd the conclusion has been the same for a while. GPS-only NAV is very susceptible to degradation. Blended solutions are the only path forward with GPS.
- jaimex2 8y agoI remember reading the Kremlin has a high powered version of this mocking the airport co-ordinates so drones would not fly in its airspace.
- lawlessone 8y ago>mocking the airport co-ordinates Sounds very dangerous. If an aircraft was landing in poor visibility they could use that to make t crash.
- baq 8y agodoes ILS use GPS?
- SteveNuts 8y agoNo it's radio waves with directional antennas
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- red75prime 8y agoAirports use ILS with their own guiding antenna arrays and their own frequencies. At least this particular airport should.
- ceejayoz 8y agoGPS can be and is used as a replacement for an ILS approach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Localizer_performance_with_vertical_guidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Localizer_performance_with_ver... > As of September 17, 2015 the Federal Aviation Administration has published 3,567 LPV approaches at 1,739 airports. This is greater than the number of published Category I ILS procedures.
- oh_sigh 8y agoThe aircraft would have to be within a few hundred foot bubble of Central Moscow in order to receive the spoofed signal. There are already major problems if an airplane picks up that spoofed signal and tries to land based on it.
- walrus01 8y agoyes, a number of people have seen their smartphones when near the kremlin show coordinates of one of moscow's airports, such as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRlxSF5bwTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRlxSF5bwTI
- ourmandave 8y agoCould be used on self-driving vehicles like the giant dump trucks in quarries, or harvesters in corn fields? What about autonomous trains? Cause that would off the rails.
- Robotbeat 8y agoA $10 steel bar can derail a train.
- randomsearch 8y agoEasier to protect a train line than all the roads in a country (and indeed, they are often protected). No physical trespass required, remote activated.
- Robotbeat 8y agoExcept rail lines aren’t protected, and couldn’t feasibly be protected. An autonomous car could easily be protected from this simply by using local sensors for collision avoidance, which I think is the norm, as opposed to what this headline misleadingly (heh) suggests. Edit: Relevant XKCD. Causing crashes isn’t hard period. https://m.xkcd.com/1958/ https://m.xkcd.com/1958/
- randomsearch 8y agoIn the UK railways are mostly protected. Now, that may be a simple fence, which someone could climb over, but then they may find themselves reported, or caught on CCTV. It's a very obvious, very visible thing to do, and in urban areas railways are indeed protected pretty well. And remote triggering something like that is non-trivial. Roads are everywhere, most of them completely unprotected, and you don't actually have to physically and visibly interfere with the road.
- DanBC 8y ago> In the UK railways are mostly protected. They aren't protected. We know this from the numbers of deaths that occur each year on the railways.
- soziawa 8y agoIs it also easier to protect all train lines in the country? It seems a bit foolish to compare a single train line to all roads instead of all train lines to all roads.
- detaro 8y agoprevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17539465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17539465 direct link to paper: https://people.cs.vt.edu/gangwang/sec18-gps.pdf https://people.cs.vt.edu/gangwang/sec18-gps.pdf
- jsoc815 8y agoThanks, missed the previous post.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- wongarsu 8y ago>A $225 GPS spoofer can send sat-nav-guided vehicles into oncoming traffic * * by fooling the vehicle into driving the wrong way through a one-way street. That's a serious asterisk. I think there are much more interesting worst-case applications for this, like kidnapping, randsom, misdirecting emergency responders etc. Some of those are mentioned by the article, but the headline just causes doubt and disappointment.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoI agree Google/Apple/whatever directions send delivery vehicles down roads with under-height structures all the time and they rarely get can-opened. GPS directions are inaccurate enough in urban environments that people have to pay enough attention for this attack to not work very well. People will generally defer to the local signage when it comes to which lane you need to be in for a turn and which way you can't drive down a street or how tall a bridge actually is.
- keymone 8y agoconsidering that GPS has civilian and military parts of the signal, are the messages not signed by, i don't know, U.S. military or something? how come it is easy to spoof?
- karthikb 8y agoThe military signal is encrypted and on a different band. Only the military has access to that signal.
- keymone 8y agoright, but they could've went the extra meter and just sign all outgoing payloads?
- tomcooks 8y agoFor what purpose? Risk someone crafting fake signatures? From what i can understand, this separation of concerns is a safer option
- keymone 8y agoso that no device under any circumstances can be spoofed. what kind of risk is there in crafted signatures if right now you're 100% vulnerable to spoofing without any effort required to produce said signatures?
- mattmanser 8y agoYou could say this about any legacy network. Like the mobile phone network. The designers just didn't think about it/it was expensive/it's expensive to fix/there's legacy hardware.
- keymone 8y agowell if the hardware is advanced enough to do encryption, it is certainly is capable of producing signatures. are GPS satellites not upgradeable? maybe they didn't think about it 40 years ago, but in the last decade - it's about time..
- Nokinside 8y agoObviously sat-nav guided systems should not rely on unprotected satellite navigation alone. You need complementary systems. EU's GNSS has PRS (Public Regulated Service) is authenticated and can be used in sensitive applications for civilian uses. US has GPS modes that are protected but they seem to be only for military. There is also Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) and European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service (EGNOS). They augment GPS/Golnass and Galileo and provide integrity and more accuracy. Typically new sat-nav systems have multi-constellation capability and they can receive from from GPS/GNSS/Golnass. Even new smartphones have that capability. Of course, if all of them are unprotected, you can spoof them all parallel.
- ccnafr 8y agoDuplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17539465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17539465