23 ms·

Penti Chorded Keyboard

192 points by shakna 8y ago

nautilus12 8y ago
So would someone typing on this keyboard look more like someone playing piano where they are holding and raising and lowering certain fingers?
- Y_Y 8y ago
  It doesn't seem so in the provided "short" example video [0]. Unfortunately the thumb is on the wrong part of the hand for this system to work on touchscreen (imho). Maybe it would be suitable for chimpanzees, or a hardware device like a twiddler. [0] https://youtu.be/z_01ha1uS6Y https://youtu.be/z_01ha1uS6Y
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bsiemon 8y ago
  I think so. If you click through to the videos you see it is all done on a phone. Seems like it would be hard to be fast without tactile feedback. The phone is just a demo of part of the concept.
vegetablesalad 8y ago
I wonder how efficient could someone be if they mastered this keyboard compared to traditional one? My first thought is that it takes more movement of fingers to achieve the same result. For example typing one letter multiple times would make you lift and lower multiple fingers at once. Or going from B to V takes no effort on traditional keyboard compared to raising and lowering combination of 3 different fingers. Nonetheless pretty cool
- jerf 8y ago
  I would imagine having to use a touchscreen is a serious speed impediment, because of inherent latency issues on a touchscreen (if it responds too quickly, it gets too many transients). Physical chord keyboards should be able to go faster. I've seen various conflicting reports of how fast a chorded keyboard can go, possibly because it's really hard to find anyone with 10 years experience on a chorded keyboard.
  - vegetablesalad 8y ago
    I definitely agree about the tactile feedback, but thinking purely about how much more movement you have to do makes me think that traditional keyboard should be faster. Now if this would be mirrored to your other hand then I could see that someone who mastered this could in theory be faster. Purely speculating on all of these points thou
  - namibj 8y ago
    I have no issue typing full speed with two thumbs on a large phone in portrait. This incidentally enables an 80-column terminal.... That is, even on QUERTY on a laptop keyboard I get significantly higher typing speeds due to the use of more than 4 fingers combined with the lower travel distance (measured relative to the target precision), along with the distinct tactile feedback of whether you hit the key or one next to it. Tactile feedback, like a blackberry keyboard, would allow even higher speeds and, most importantly, allow to keep the eyes off the thumbs, as they are needed to use typos as feedback and also to correct these typos.
pvinis 8y ago
This reminds me of steno keyboards and the plover system. It's interesting, but I don't think it's the most important thing for developers. In my opinion a comfortable keyboard like an ortho one, and a bunch of helpers like modal editor and shortcuts using something like qmk provide the most value. That takes you to like 90%. Using steno after that is just pushing you to like 95%. (I know that's some weird random metric, but hopefully I got the point across.)
- arxanas 8y ago
  Stenography is likely overkill if you're only coding: an orthographic and/or split keyboard, keyboard shortcuts, a snippets, and autocomplete gets you most of the way there. Unlike prose, you really don't crank out that many characters of code very quickly. The question is really: how much of your day do you spend writing prose rather than code? For me, I have a lot of instant messaging to do with coworkers in remote offices, or emails to write or respond to, or design documents to write. In this case, stenography really helps me out, and since I've learned it, I might as well use it for coding where it's convenient (mostly comments but also for writing some new lines of code.)
djsumdog 8y ago
I want to build a mirror chorded keyboard, using an existing split design like a Dactyl or Ergodox, where a modifier on each side gives you the mirrored key (mod+A gives you ', mod+e gives you p, etc.) I've seen some commercial keyboards like this, but they're incredibly expensive and non-mechanical (mostly geared to people who are disabled/have limited or no use of one hand). My theory is that the learning curve of a one handed keyboard that is just a mirror would be easier than a totally new layout like the FrogPad or the example linked here. Reprogramming an existing split model means I could also build both the left/right hand versions and try to learn both.
- sleepybrett 8y ago
  This is 100% doable, hell 100% easy, within QMK (the current open source firmware of choice for custom MK builders)
- linsomniac 8y ago
  The Ergodox would be really easy to reprogram this way. The Infinity is two independent one-hand keyboards, so that's probably the one you want.
- wildebaard 8y ago
  You can also use AutoHotkey[0] to create a script to emulate any keyboard layout. I use it (among other things) to provide me with arrow-key navigation on IJKL keys by pressing the left Alt + <key>. After the initial 'how does this work' it's almost trivially easy to create all kinds of new "shortcuts"! [0] https://autohotkey.com/ https://autohotkey.com/
- leoc 8y ago
  > I've seen some commercial keyboards like this, but they're incredibly expensive and non-mechanical (mostly geared to people who are disabled/have limited or no use of one hand). The Matias 508 is one such http://www.508keyboard.com/ http://www.508keyboard.com/ , are there others? One feature you might want in such an arrangement is a capactive sensor in the mouse: https://plus.google.com/105224327306964621564/posts/51JkbiocpnU https://plus.google.com/105224327306964621564/posts/51Jkbioc...
dwringer 8y ago
This is a cool idea. New explorations and innovations in this direction are very welcome IMHO. I'm still a bit dismayed after reading about Douglas Engelbart's 5-key chording keysets that there's very little on the market to fill such a niche completely. It may be argued that we now have mouses with 5+ buttons, when Engelbart himself scaled back from 5 to 3 for the mouse hand, and we're now used to keeping one hand on the keyboard where we commonly do two- and three-finger chords, but there's a certain level of facility that I think can still only be realized with a dedicated chording keyset. Engelbart's keysets could also provide two-way communication (by puffing air under the keys) to do things like prompt for certain responses when mousing over certain screen elements, which still seems slightly out of reach for smartphones' limited "haptic feedback" (not that I saw that mentioned here, just something that came to mind when I saw this was an implementation for touchscreen devices).
- melling 8y ago
  I’d like to see someone develop a chorded keyboard with some sort of gesture based feedback. An advanced sign language for computer input. Cameras, etc could be used to read our gestures: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/ctrl-labss-neural-tech-lets-humans-control-machines-with-their-brains.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/ctrl-labss-neural-tech-lets-... https://atap.google.com/soli/ https://atap.google.com/soli/
  - jodrellblank 8y ago
    LeapMotion gesture sensors were shipping in HP Laptops at least 5 years ago, this is from 2013: https://www.cnet.com/pictures/this-hp-laptop-has-a-built-in-leap-motion-sensor-pictures/ https://www.cnet.com/pictures/this-hp-laptop-has-a-built-in-... How does it compare to the Soli?
  - KingPrad 8y ago
    I also think our hands could do more in keyboard position. Lift off slightly and gestures could be recognized by a camera, even things like 2-finger scrolling could be done by lifting the fingers slightly and doing it. Same with pinch-zoom or scroll. Or when working with a 3D model, making a hand shape as if you were gripping a globe, you should be able to twist and rotate objects on screen. I remember posting excitedly about this on Slashdot 15 years ago and am just remembering it now. This should be easily achievable with modern libraries to get basic detection working. Although some abhor the idea and want more complex keystrokes chords, for myself I think there are specific gestures I consider intuitive and wouldn't have to particularly learn anything new.
Uberphallus 8y ago
Reminds me of the AlphaGrip[0] somewhat. Of the problems of using it, I mean. I bought it like 10 years ago, and sold it a couple of years later, it's good to see that they're still in business. On the AG, instead of a combination of buttons to produce a keypress, you have 8 keys (buttons?) that can rock in two directions, plus thumb buttons, including red and green "shifts" that work as Fn keys. Normally you type text, pressing red shift you input numbers and arithmetic symbols, with green shift the rest of the symbols. It was great for games and got past my regular QWERTY speed writing English text after a couple of months. Now, if you write in more than one language, you're screwed. Using other layouts would make the already difficult task for developing muscle memory even more annoying. I tried it with US-Intl layout (as I was used to it on QWERTY) to have a unique layout for multiple languages, but it quickly becomes unusable: to produce an "À", I don't remember exactly, but required 2+2 or 3+2 simultaneous keypresses, plus US-Intl is implemented different in different OS, so sometimes you have to take into account dead keys, sticky keys, sometimes not. And don't get me started on shortcuts and programming... [0] http://www.alphagrip.com/ http://www.alphagrip.com/
- lfowles 8y ago
  I actually used an Alphagrip daily at work for probably a year+. It halved my normal qwerty speed (120 wpm down to 60 wpm), but got rid of all of my wrist pain. Good exchange! I had a similar experience that I bought my first one ten years ago, then sold it after a few years of not using it. On a whim after I started feeling pain, I tried again and after doing typing tests for 10-15 minutes each morning for a month it finally stuck. Ended up modding it with a teflon trackball before I finally unplugged my normal keyboard and put it behind my monitor. Would be nice to see an upgrade with a working shift key (the modifier is not actually sent) and a wireless option...
ganonm 8y ago
I feel like computers are such an important part of our lives now that it's surprising so many people settle for the entrenched option of 'standard QWERTY computer keyboard'. I realised a while ago that since I spend so much of my life interacting with a computer, I should really invest significant effort into improving, even marginally, the ergonomics and bandwidth of the IO channel between my brain and the computer I am interacting with. This realisation and the ensuing quest for a better option led me to adopt the Ergodox EZ keyboard. This has been the most significant improvement to my day-to-day interactions with computers since learning Vim. It did take several months to adjust and a significant amount of effort went into designing the optimal layout to suit my needs, but the results have been incredible. - I never need to look at the keyboard - My WPM rate is sufficient that I can type almost as fast as I can think - The palms of my hands never move (zero wrist flexion) My keyboard layout can be found here https://github.com/Ganon-M/ergodox-vim-ubuntu https://github.com/Ganon-M/ergodox-vim-ubuntu If any of you out there are heavy Vim users and want to take your ergonomic experience to the next level, I suggest taking a look at the above layout.
- nightcracker 8y ago
  > My WPM rate is sufficient that I can type almost as fast as I can think Can you quantify this? E.g. through https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en I don't know how fast you think.
  - wlesieutre 8y ago
    On my second try I hit 108 WPM, in the top 1% among a sample of people who go online and take typing speed tests (probably not representative of the normal population). But it's way too easy without punctuation. Real world speeds are definitely slower. FWIW I find that my quicker-than-average typing is still definitely not always fast enough to keep up with what I want to write down.
    - nightcracker 8y ago
      I type at around 120 wpm on that test, and have tried to switch to an ergodox before. And it was an utter failure. I simply couldn't endure going back to typing at 40 wpm at best, with many errors. Too high of a learning curve.
nine_k 8y ago
I'd like to notice an important thing: with this keyboard, one does not move the fingertips at all. The only motion required is press / release. This is a great quality when hands are busy with something else, like holding a bike's handlebar, or an aircraft control rod. It's also likely a good setup for some smart glove type of input device, where there are no keys to press but finger motions are detected. If fingertips are allowed to change the position, a few more keys allow for easier chords and much more characters, all using the same 5 fingers. They can be touch-typed even easier than a normal keyboard.
lucb1e 8y ago
I've been trying to use it on Android for 40 minutes now (read: brute forcing and trying to match what I see with the docs) and I just figured out how basic stuff like backspace is supposed to work. Some getting-started tips: - The first thing you need is to touch all 5 fingers in a comfortable position to the screen. This activates the view that you were expecting to see. (This info is buried in the second to last paragraph of intro text.) - To reset the buttons' positions (and get to pick new locations), activate another keyboard and then activate this one again. - The arpeggio versions with two options (such as "tab/del") are directional: A->B is tab and B->A is del, where A and B are two of the five buttons. - "del" is the equivalent of "backspace", not "delete". - Backspace is supposed to be the arpeggio version of L, which is "- ##--" (index and middle finger), with middle finger first. So what you do is: press and hold middle finger, wait, press index finger, then release both. Do not release middle before you press index, do not be too fast, and do not be too slow. It's easy to be too fast or too slow, so keep practicing I guess... - That mysterious little 6th button is the repeat key (this is also mentioned somewhere in the middle of the text). - All keys disappearing when you tap next to it is not a bug but a feature: it allows you to use a second finger (while the first one hides the keyboard UI) to tap something behind the keyboard, such as opening a menu or selecting text. - The lowering of audio volume (and perhaps some stuttering) is not your hitting the key combo for volume changes, but it's your music app detecting that this app is playing sound or vibrating or whatever and lowering its volume temporarily in response.
tankfeeder 8y ago
https://software-lab.de/Penti1991.jpg https://software-lab.de/Penti1991.jpg
amelius 8y ago
Nice, though I feel that if IO is the bottleneck (as opposed to the brain), then perhaps it's time to move on to a more intellectually challenging use of a computer.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  This is true; I only feel like I can't type fast enough when working in something that requires churning out a lot of boilerplate. The rest is editing and adjusting. Which could be faster, I think, vs code doesn't for example autoclose html tags (or jsx / react) fast enough for my liking, doesn't seem to help me at all.
  - amelius 8y ago
    I'm hoping we'll soon get some ML for typing/completing boilerplate code.
e0m 8y ago
I built one of these! With a shifter on the palm, and a separate control toggle, you'd get pretty much the full ASCII set. Even though I'm right handed, it worked best on my left hand. This is because of how surprisingly nice it was to use my dominant hand to do something (use a mouse, eat, etc), while still typing with my left. Alas I assume the reason this never caught on was due to the learning curve. People will never leave qwerty. Also it was pretty slow. When I built this back in 2005, I was thinking for PDAs and early cell phones and was only competing against T9 and early palm keyboards. After a few months of practice, I never topped about 45 wpm.
- haraball 8y ago
  Was it something like this? http://bengler.no/chorder http://bengler.no/chorder > Chorderoy is a an attempt at crafting an optimal method of text input for mobile and wearable devices aimed at those who enjoy the rewards that come with free climbing steep learning curves.
digi_owl 8y ago
I found myself thinking of teletype wire signals, probably because CuriousMarc have been uploading videos on them refurbishing a naval version recently.
jeffreyrogers 8y ago
This is cool, but the author could sell his idea better. It took me a while to figure out what a Penti Chorded keyboard even is. The video linked at the very bottom shows why this could be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_01ha1uS6Y&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_01ha1uS6Y&feature=youtu.be I wish the author had explained at the start what problem this solves rather than launching right into an explanation of how it works.
- moron4hire 8y ago
  Thanks for that. I thought it was a physical keyboard. Didn't realize it was a tablet-screen keyboard.
hnal943 8y ago
I have wanted to try something like this ever since I watched The Mother of All Demos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos
dminor 8y ago
A friend of mine created a chorded (virtual) keyboard for making typing on tablets easier[0]. The more common the letter, the simpler the chord combination. [0] http://asetniop.com http://asetniop.com
- lps41 8y ago
  Is this project still active? I remember seeing this years ago, but it seemed like the developer walked away from it. I would really like to have the ability to install asetniop on Linux, and have the layout be configurable.
  - dminor 8y ago
    It's still active - he launched iOS and Android apps earlier this year. I don't know if he's planning desktop support, but you might try shooting him an email.
jwalton 8y ago
> However, combinations where the ring finger is up while its neighbors are down is physiologically problematic. Really? Why?
- mondoshawan 8y ago
  Because the middle, ring, and pinky all share the same muscle group. Try this: hold your hand out in a fist and extend your middle, ring, and pinky straight out. Now try to flex each of the three extended fingers individually without moving the other two. Now try the inverse: make a fist and try raising each finger individually without moving the other two. It's physiologically impossible because the muscle used for extension is shared between those fingers. (Edit: extension is impossible, not contraction)
asplake 8y ago
Surprised no-one has mentioned the Microwriter [1]. In my teens I saved up for one to use with my BBC computer but never really got on with it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter
- cjbprime 8y ago
  My Dad had a Microwriter AgendA! I learned some of the chording, and used to write "Choose Your Own Adventure" games using its desktop software (which looked a little like a wiki, I guess) and download them on to the device to be played.
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  I got a Microwriter AgendA from someone around the turn of the millennium, and I loved the chording system as an idea, especially for mobile input. I've reimplemented it once or twice using the down/right arrow keys and 4/8/6/return on the numpad of a typical keyboard, as a novelty. And I bought a CyKey, so both devices seen in this image in your link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MicroWriter,_AgendA,_and_CyKey.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MicroWriter,_AgendA,_and_... But it is enormously slow; it's approximately like typing with one slow finger, with writing being enough let alone punctuation. I'm most surprised nobody has made a HTML/JavaScript chording thing that works on multitouch tablets to be an overlay (maybe a bookmarklet?) to type into textboxes. So this Penti keyboard link is a great interest to me.
gfodor 8y ago
This will be very cool, if it ever ships: https://waytools.com/ https://waytools.com/
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  Wow that feels like forever ago; that thing still hasn't shipped?? Here's a HN-er ordering one in Jan 2015 and being surprised that the expected shipping date is March 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8880581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8880581
gfodor 8y ago
I think there is going to be room in the future for a single handed symbolic entry system like Twiddler as we enter the era of immersive computing. It seems likely you're going to need a way to do text entry on-the-go, while wearing AR glasses. An input mechanism where one hand is dedicated to doing that seems like a good model, with the other dedicated to more fine motor gesturing.
- lam 8y ago
  Hi. I think you may be delighted to see what I have built. I would love to get your thoughts on it if you're in a related field. I can also let you try it if you'll give me feedback. How can I reach out to you? My contact is my username @opdig.com.
fsiefken 8y ago
Really nice to see this, 10 years ago I designed a chording system with 5 bits, distributing the difficult to use combination to less frequently used characters (like in the Dvorak keyboard layout). Was there any though given to this aspect?
cjhanks 8y ago
I have to think there must be at least one disabled person that could benefit from a keyboard which did not force you to move your arm - and could work with 5 fingers.
- toss1 8y ago
  True, right here! I'm temporarily disabled after Rt shoulder surgery and am looking for a left-handed-only keyboard solution (typing very slowly w/LH on the laptop kbd now). I found a great mouse solution, a Logitech trackball mouse that sits in my RH sling [1] -- so good I expect to switch to it after recovery. But the kbd... [1] Logitech MX ERGO Advanced Wireless Trackball https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0753P1GTS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0753P1GTS/ref=oh_aui_de...
thom 8y ago
My dad had an Agenda which had a 5-key chorded keyboard[1]. It was quite cool, you could actually type in your pocket to an extent. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=4 https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=4
- utopcell 8y ago
  I had never heard of this device, looks very nice. Thanks for sharing.
- cjbprime 8y ago
  same!
myfonj 8y ago
Recently I have been pondering something very similar, but strictly "arpeggio"-based [0] and for regular keyboards, and whether it could be comparatively performant like normal qwerty. I've amused myself fancying scenario when using just fraction of keys in an unusual way could perhaps beat traditional touch typing professionals. I've seen some video where blind person claimed that typing on braille keyboard [1] could be insanely fast. Coincidentally, today I have been testing what my keyboard can handle in regards of how many simultaneously pressed keys it recognizes at most. (I know it depends on particular keyboard hardware and its "ghosting", but it was fun to try out [2]. I've squeezed 12 keys max.) [0] in penti vocabulary, meaning progressions of several held and released keys, mainly to circumvent hassle of definition what timespan is still "parallel" and what "progression". Releasing the last key could be the end of progression and produce output. [1] like http://www.teach-ict.com/as_a2_ict_new/ocr/AS_G061/312_software_hardware/specialist_hwsw/miniweb/pg5.htm http://www.teach-ict.com/as_a2_ict_new/ocr/AS_G061/312_softw... [2] http://myfonj.github.io/tst/keyboard-simultaneous-keys.html http://myfonj.github.io/tst/keyboard-simultaneous-keys.html not perfect, since some keys or OS key combos produces funky results…
Regenaxer 8y ago
I should explain more clearly how to generate an arpeggio in PentiKeyboard: The rules are: 1. The last key must be pressed AT LEAST 80 ms later than the second. 2. The last key must be pressed MAXIMALLY 240 ms. A backspace (DEL) is generated with middle and index finger. While pressing middle and index finger simultaneously (or longer than 240 ms) gives an "l", you get a backspace when you first press the middle finger (as long as you like, but at least 80 ms), then make a short tap with the index finger and immediately release both fingers.
Regenaxer 8y ago
Perhaps also the video snippets in this article are helpful: https://picolisp.com/wiki/?TermuxPentiPicoLisp https://picolisp.com/wiki/?TermuxPentiPicoLisp
ComputerGuru 8y ago
So I'm the only person that didn't realize this was describing a soft keyboard and not an actual physical layout until I reached "Initially the letters "P E N T I" are displayed."? Maybe this comment will save someone else the frustration.
xellisx 8y ago
I still want to try this keyboard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  I did buy one of eBay many years ago, and after a long time of hardly any use (years), sold it again, and still miss it sometimes. The good: fantastic design and build quality. Magneto/optical key sensors way better than any key switch on a normal keyboard. Really surprisingly easy to learn and adjust to "almost-qwerty" default layout. Nice for long-form typing, fingers roll around very short movements, very comfortably. The bad: huge on a desk, they are really chunky boxes and there's a big power supply and controller box. Basically unusable for one-handed hunt-and-peck typing. Really annoying to use as a mouse (can be done - one side middle finger does big movements, the other side does fine movements, but it's still stepped keyboard-based-mousing), but also annoying to move hand from keyboard to mouse and back because it involves careful lifting of fingers out of, or into, the key-wells - fingers are surrounded by keys you don't want to press. Because of that, can't hover hand over keyboard. Ever. Awkward unless you have perfect typing style - can't habitually press a key with the "wrong" finger, now there's a correct finger for every key and no other option. Expensive even then before their big price hikes and production problems, even second hand.
drdaeman 8y ago
I just wonder if there's any chorded keyboard implemented as a smartphone bump case (with 4 buttons on the one side and one for the thumb on the other side, but maybe some other layout), so user can grip it with their hand and use for input. Should be painful to learn (obviously), but then should beat on-screen keyboards because it won't require tapping (and even looking) at the screen at all.
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  Indeed; who has never dreamed of a DataEgg keyboard on a smartphone.. https://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/dataegg2.gif https://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/dataegg2.gif
spilk 8y ago
This reminds me a lot of the old "BAT" keyboard: https://www.infogrip.com/bat-keyboard.html https://www.infogrip.com/bat-keyboard.html
akavel 8y ago
See also a related but more physical idea: a "Chordite" - http://www.chordite.com/protophotos.htm http://www.chordite.com/protophotos.htm - http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite/index.html http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite/index.html
ChuckMcM 8y ago
There was a one handed keyboard in BYTE magazine that was similar to this, it was built on to a half sphere so the hand naturally curled around it. My only issue with specialized keyboards is that I have at least 6[1] I use nearly every day, not all of them are easily replaced, so much harder to go back and forth between styles than to just have one style you can use. [1] Home workstation work workstation, personal laptop, work laptop, home server, work machines in the lab.
p3llin0r3 8y ago
Would love something like this for single-handed use in Android. I'm amazed at how poor my typing skills in android are, after years and years of constant use. Something just is not working!

192 points by shakna 8y ago

So would someone typing on this keyboard look more like someone playing piano where they are holding and raising and lowering certain fingers?

Y_Y 8y ago
It doesn't seem so in the provided "short" example video [0]. Unfortunately the thumb is on the wrong part of the hand for this system to work on touchscreen (imho). Maybe it would be suitable for chimpanzees, or a hardware device like a twiddler. [0] https://youtu.be/z_01ha1uS6Y https://youtu.be/z_01ha1uS6Y
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
bsiemon 8y ago
I think so. If you click through to the videos you see it is all done on a phone. Seems like it would be hard to be fast without tactile feedback. The phone is just a demo of part of the concept.

vegetablesalad 8y ago

I wonder how efficient could someone be if they mastered this keyboard compared to traditional one? My first thought is that it takes more movement of fingers to achieve the same result. For example typing one letter multiple times would make you lift and lower multiple fingers at once. Or going from B to V takes no effort on traditional keyboard compared to raising and lowering combination of 3 different fingers. Nonetheless pretty cool

jerf 8y ago
I would imagine having to use a touchscreen is a serious speed impediment, because of inherent latency issues on a touchscreen (if it responds too quickly, it gets too many transients). Physical chord keyboards should be able to go faster. I've seen various conflicting reports of how fast a chorded keyboard can go, possibly because it's really hard to find anyone with 10 years experience on a chorded keyboard.
- vegetablesalad 8y ago
  I definitely agree about the tactile feedback, but thinking purely about how much more movement you have to do makes me think that traditional keyboard should be faster. Now if this would be mirrored to your other hand then I could see that someone who mastered this could in theory be faster. Purely speculating on all of these points thou
- namibj 8y ago
  I have no issue typing full speed with two thumbs on a large phone in portrait. This incidentally enables an 80-column terminal.... That is, even on QUERTY on a laptop keyboard I get significantly higher typing speeds due to the use of more than 4 fingers combined with the lower travel distance (measured relative to the target precision), along with the distinct tactile feedback of whether you hit the key or one next to it. Tactile feedback, like a blackberry keyboard, would allow even higher speeds and, most importantly, allow to keep the eyes off the thumbs, as they are needed to use typos as feedback and also to correct these typos.

pvinis 8y ago

This reminds me of steno keyboards and the plover system. It's interesting, but I don't think it's the most important thing for developers. In my opinion a comfortable keyboard like an ortho one, and a bunch of helpers like modal editor and shortcuts using something like qmk provide the most value. That takes you to like 90%. Using steno after that is just pushing you to like 95%. (I know that's some weird random metric, but hopefully I got the point across.)

arxanas 8y ago
Stenography is likely overkill if you're only coding: an orthographic and/or split keyboard, keyboard shortcuts, a snippets, and autocomplete gets you most of the way there. Unlike prose, you really don't crank out that many characters of code very quickly. The question is really: how much of your day do you spend writing prose rather than code? For me, I have a lot of instant messaging to do with coworkers in remote offices, or emails to write or respond to, or design documents to write. In this case, stenography really helps me out, and since I've learned it, I might as well use it for coding where it's convenient (mostly comments but also for writing some new lines of code.)

djsumdog 8y ago

I want to build a mirror chorded keyboard, using an existing split design like a Dactyl or Ergodox, where a modifier on each side gives you the mirrored key (mod+A gives you ', mod+e gives you p, etc.) I've seen some commercial keyboards like this, but they're incredibly expensive and non-mechanical (mostly geared to people who are disabled/have limited or no use of one hand). My theory is that the learning curve of a one handed keyboard that is just a mirror would be easier than a totally new layout like the FrogPad or the example linked here. Reprogramming an existing split model means I could also build both the left/right hand versions and try to learn both.

sleepybrett 8y ago
This is 100% doable, hell 100% easy, within QMK (the current open source firmware of choice for custom MK builders)
linsomniac 8y ago
The Ergodox would be really easy to reprogram this way. The Infinity is two independent one-hand keyboards, so that's probably the one you want.
wildebaard 8y ago
You can also use AutoHotkey[0] to create a script to emulate any keyboard layout. I use it (among other things) to provide me with arrow-key navigation on IJKL keys by pressing the left Alt + <key>. After the initial 'how does this work' it's almost trivially easy to create all kinds of new "shortcuts"! [0] https://autohotkey.com/ https://autohotkey.com/
leoc 8y ago
> I've seen some commercial keyboards like this, but they're incredibly expensive and non-mechanical (mostly geared to people who are disabled/have limited or no use of one hand). The Matias 508 is one such http://www.508keyboard.com/ http://www.508keyboard.com/ , are there others? One feature you might want in such an arrangement is a capactive sensor in the mouse: https://plus.google.com/105224327306964621564/posts/51JkbiocpnU https://plus.google.com/105224327306964621564/posts/51Jkbioc...

dwringer 8y ago

This is a cool idea. New explorations and innovations in this direction are very welcome IMHO. I'm still a bit dismayed after reading about Douglas Engelbart's 5-key chording keysets that there's very little on the market to fill such a niche completely. It may be argued that we now have mouses with 5+ buttons, when Engelbart himself scaled back from 5 to 3 for the mouse hand, and we're now used to keeping one hand on the keyboard where we commonly do two- and three-finger chords, but there's a certain level of facility that I think can still only be realized with a dedicated chording keyset. Engelbart's keysets could also provide two-way communication (by puffing air under the keys) to do things like prompt for certain responses when mousing over certain screen elements, which still seems slightly out of reach for smartphones' limited "haptic feedback" (not that I saw that mentioned here, just something that came to mind when I saw this was an implementation for touchscreen devices).

melling 8y ago
I’d like to see someone develop a chorded keyboard with some sort of gesture based feedback. An advanced sign language for computer input. Cameras, etc could be used to read our gestures: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/ctrl-labss-neural-tech-lets-humans-control-machines-with-their-brains.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/ctrl-labss-neural-tech-lets-... https://atap.google.com/soli/ https://atap.google.com/soli/
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  LeapMotion gesture sensors were shipping in HP Laptops at least 5 years ago, this is from 2013: https://www.cnet.com/pictures/this-hp-laptop-has-a-built-in-leap-motion-sensor-pictures/ https://www.cnet.com/pictures/this-hp-laptop-has-a-built-in-... How does it compare to the Soli?
- KingPrad 8y ago
  I also think our hands could do more in keyboard position. Lift off slightly and gestures could be recognized by a camera, even things like 2-finger scrolling could be done by lifting the fingers slightly and doing it. Same with pinch-zoom or scroll. Or when working with a 3D model, making a hand shape as if you were gripping a globe, you should be able to twist and rotate objects on screen. I remember posting excitedly about this on Slashdot 15 years ago and am just remembering it now. This should be easily achievable with modern libraries to get basic detection working. Although some abhor the idea and want more complex keystrokes chords, for myself I think there are specific gestures I consider intuitive and wouldn't have to particularly learn anything new.

Uberphallus 8y ago

Reminds me of the AlphaGrip[0] somewhat. Of the problems of using it, I mean. I bought it like 10 years ago, and sold it a couple of years later, it's good to see that they're still in business. On the AG, instead of a combination of buttons to produce a keypress, you have 8 keys (buttons?) that can rock in two directions, plus thumb buttons, including red and green "shifts" that work as Fn keys. Normally you type text, pressing red shift you input numbers and arithmetic symbols, with green shift the rest of the symbols. It was great for games and got past my regular QWERTY speed writing English text after a couple of months. Now, if you write in more than one language, you're screwed. Using other layouts would make the already difficult task for developing muscle memory even more annoying. I tried it with US-Intl layout (as I was used to it on QWERTY) to have a unique layout for multiple languages, but it quickly becomes unusable: to produce an "À", I don't remember exactly, but required 2+2 or 3+2 simultaneous keypresses, plus US-Intl is implemented different in different OS, so sometimes you have to take into account dead keys, sticky keys, sometimes not. And don't get me started on shortcuts and programming... [0] http://www.alphagrip.com/ http://www.alphagrip.com/

lfowles 8y ago
I actually used an Alphagrip daily at work for probably a year+. It halved my normal qwerty speed (120 wpm down to 60 wpm), but got rid of all of my wrist pain. Good exchange! I had a similar experience that I bought my first one ten years ago, then sold it after a few years of not using it. On a whim after I started feeling pain, I tried again and after doing typing tests for 10-15 minutes each morning for a month it finally stuck. Ended up modding it with a teflon trackball before I finally unplugged my normal keyboard and put it behind my monitor. Would be nice to see an upgrade with a working shift key (the modifier is not actually sent) and a wireless option...

ganonm 8y ago

I feel like computers are such an important part of our lives now that it's surprising so many people settle for the entrenched option of 'standard QWERTY computer keyboard'. I realised a while ago that since I spend so much of my life interacting with a computer, I should really invest significant effort into improving, even marginally, the ergonomics and bandwidth of the IO channel between my brain and the computer I am interacting with. This realisation and the ensuing quest for a better option led me to adopt the Ergodox EZ keyboard. This has been the most significant improvement to my day-to-day interactions with computers since learning Vim. It did take several months to adjust and a significant amount of effort went into designing the optimal layout to suit my needs, but the results have been incredible. - I never need to look at the keyboard - My WPM rate is sufficient that I can type almost as fast as I can think - The palms of my hands never move (zero wrist flexion) My keyboard layout can be found here https://github.com/Ganon-M/ergodox-vim-ubuntu https://github.com/Ganon-M/ergodox-vim-ubuntu If any of you out there are heavy Vim users and want to take your ergonomic experience to the next level, I suggest taking a look at the above layout.

nightcracker 8y ago
> My WPM rate is sufficient that I can type almost as fast as I can think Can you quantify this? E.g. through https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en https://typing-speed-test.aoeu.eu/?lang=en I don't know how fast you think.
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  On my second try I hit 108 WPM, in the top 1% among a sample of people who go online and take typing speed tests (probably not representative of the normal population). But it's way too easy without punctuation. Real world speeds are definitely slower. FWIW I find that my quicker-than-average typing is still definitely not always fast enough to keep up with what I want to write down.
  - nightcracker 8y ago
    I type at around 120 wpm on that test, and have tried to switch to an ergodox before. And it was an utter failure. I simply couldn't endure going back to typing at 40 wpm at best, with many errors. Too high of a learning curve.

nine_k 8y ago

I'd like to notice an important thing: with this keyboard, one does not move the fingertips at all. The only motion required is press / release. This is a great quality when hands are busy with something else, like holding a bike's handlebar, or an aircraft control rod. It's also likely a good setup for some smart glove type of input device, where there are no keys to press but finger motions are detected. If fingertips are allowed to change the position, a few more keys allow for easier chords and much more characters, all using the same 5 fingers. They can be touch-typed even easier than a normal keyboard.

lucb1e 8y ago

I've been trying to use it on Android for 40 minutes now (read: brute forcing and trying to match what I see with the docs) and I just figured out how basic stuff like backspace is supposed to work. Some getting-started tips: - The first thing you need is to touch all 5 fingers in a comfortable position to the screen. This activates the view that you were expecting to see. (This info is buried in the second to last paragraph of intro text.) - To reset the buttons' positions (and get to pick new locations), activate another keyboard and then activate this one again. - The arpeggio versions with two options (such as "tab/del") are directional: A->B is tab and B->A is del, where A and B are two of the five buttons. - "del" is the equivalent of "backspace", not "delete". - Backspace is supposed to be the arpeggio version of L, which is "- ##--" (index and middle finger), with middle finger first. So what you do is: press and hold middle finger, wait, press index finger, then release both. Do not release middle before you press index, do not be too fast, and do not be too slow. It's easy to be too fast or too slow, so keep practicing I guess... - That mysterious little 6th button is the repeat key (this is also mentioned somewhere in the middle of the text). - All keys disappearing when you tap next to it is not a bug but a feature: it allows you to use a second finger (while the first one hides the keyboard UI) to tap something behind the keyboard, such as opening a menu or selecting text. - The lowering of audio volume (and perhaps some stuttering) is not your hitting the key combo for volume changes, but it's your music app detecting that this app is playing sound or vibrating or whatever and lowering its volume temporarily in response.

tankfeeder 8y ago

https://software-lab.de/Penti1991.jpg https://software-lab.de/Penti1991.jpg

amelius 8y ago

Nice, though I feel that if IO is the bottleneck (as opposed to the brain), then perhaps it's time to move on to a more intellectually challenging use of a computer.

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
This is true; I only feel like I can't type fast enough when working in something that requires churning out a lot of boilerplate. The rest is editing and adjusting. Which could be faster, I think, vs code doesn't for example autoclose html tags (or jsx / react) fast enough for my liking, doesn't seem to help me at all.
- amelius 8y ago
  I'm hoping we'll soon get some ML for typing/completing boilerplate code.

e0m 8y ago

I built one of these! With a shifter on the palm, and a separate control toggle, you'd get pretty much the full ASCII set. Even though I'm right handed, it worked best on my left hand. This is because of how surprisingly nice it was to use my dominant hand to do something (use a mouse, eat, etc), while still typing with my left. Alas I assume the reason this never caught on was due to the learning curve. People will never leave qwerty. Also it was pretty slow. When I built this back in 2005, I was thinking for PDAs and early cell phones and was only competing against T9 and early palm keyboards. After a few months of practice, I never topped about 45 wpm.

haraball 8y ago
Was it something like this? http://bengler.no/chorder http://bengler.no/chorder > Chorderoy is a an attempt at crafting an optimal method of text input for mobile and wearable devices aimed at those who enjoy the rewards that come with free climbing steep learning curves.

digi_owl 8y ago

I found myself thinking of teletype wire signals, probably because CuriousMarc have been uploading videos on them refurbishing a naval version recently.

jeffreyrogers 8y ago

This is cool, but the author could sell his idea better. It took me a while to figure out what a Penti Chorded keyboard even is. The video linked at the very bottom shows why this could be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_01ha1uS6Y&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_01ha1uS6Y&feature=youtu.be I wish the author had explained at the start what problem this solves rather than launching right into an explanation of how it works.

moron4hire 8y ago
Thanks for that. I thought it was a physical keyboard. Didn't realize it was a tablet-screen keyboard.

hnal943 8y ago

I have wanted to try something like this ever since I watched The Mother of All Demos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

dminor 8y ago

A friend of mine created a chorded (virtual) keyboard for making typing on tablets easier[0]. The more common the letter, the simpler the chord combination. [0] http://asetniop.com http://asetniop.com

lps41 8y ago
Is this project still active? I remember seeing this years ago, but it seemed like the developer walked away from it. I would really like to have the ability to install asetniop on Linux, and have the layout be configurable.
- dminor 8y ago
  It's still active - he launched iOS and Android apps earlier this year. I don't know if he's planning desktop support, but you might try shooting him an email.

jwalton 8y ago

> However, combinations where the ring finger is up while its neighbors are down is physiologically problematic. Really? Why?

mondoshawan 8y ago
Because the middle, ring, and pinky all share the same muscle group. Try this: hold your hand out in a fist and extend your middle, ring, and pinky straight out. Now try to flex each of the three extended fingers individually without moving the other two. Now try the inverse: make a fist and try raising each finger individually without moving the other two. It's physiologically impossible because the muscle used for extension is shared between those fingers. (Edit: extension is impossible, not contraction)

asplake 8y ago

Surprised no-one has mentioned the Microwriter [1]. In my teens I saved up for one to use with my BBC computer but never really got on with it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter

cjbprime 8y ago
My Dad had a Microwriter AgendA! I learned some of the chording, and used to write "Choose Your Own Adventure" games using its desktop software (which looked a little like a wiki, I guess) and download them on to the device to be played.
jodrellblank 8y ago
I got a Microwriter AgendA from someone around the turn of the millennium, and I loved the chording system as an idea, especially for mobile input. I've reimplemented it once or twice using the down/right arrow keys and 4/8/6/return on the numpad of a typical keyboard, as a novelty. And I bought a CyKey, so both devices seen in this image in your link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MicroWriter,_AgendA,_and_CyKey.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MicroWriter,_AgendA,_and_... But it is enormously slow; it's approximately like typing with one slow finger, with writing being enough let alone punctuation. I'm most surprised nobody has made a HTML/JavaScript chording thing that works on multitouch tablets to be an overlay (maybe a bookmarklet?) to type into textboxes. So this Penti keyboard link is a great interest to me.

gfodor 8y ago

This will be very cool, if it ever ships: https://waytools.com/ https://waytools.com/

jodrellblank 8y ago
Wow that feels like forever ago; that thing still hasn't shipped?? Here's a HN-er ordering one in Jan 2015 and being surprised that the expected shipping date is March 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8880581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8880581

gfodor 8y ago

I think there is going to be room in the future for a single handed symbolic entry system like Twiddler as we enter the era of immersive computing. It seems likely you're going to need a way to do text entry on-the-go, while wearing AR glasses. An input mechanism where one hand is dedicated to doing that seems like a good model, with the other dedicated to more fine motor gesturing.

lam 8y ago
Hi. I think you may be delighted to see what I have built. I would love to get your thoughts on it if you're in a related field. I can also let you try it if you'll give me feedback. How can I reach out to you? My contact is my username @opdig.com.

fsiefken 8y ago

Really nice to see this, 10 years ago I designed a chording system with 5 bits, distributing the difficult to use combination to less frequently used characters (like in the Dvorak keyboard layout). Was there any though given to this aspect?

cjhanks 8y ago

I have to think there must be at least one disabled person that could benefit from a keyboard which did not force you to move your arm - and could work with 5 fingers.

toss1 8y ago
True, right here! I'm temporarily disabled after Rt shoulder surgery and am looking for a left-handed-only keyboard solution (typing very slowly w/LH on the laptop kbd now). I found a great mouse solution, a Logitech trackball mouse that sits in my RH sling [1] -- so good I expect to switch to it after recovery. But the kbd... [1] Logitech MX ERGO Advanced Wireless Trackball https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0753P1GTS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0753P1GTS/ref=oh_aui_de...

thom 8y ago

My dad had an Agenda which had a 5-key chorded keyboard[1]. It was quite cool, you could actually type in your pocket to an extent. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=4 https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=4

utopcell 8y ago
I had never heard of this device, looks very nice. Thanks for sharing.
cjbprime 8y ago
same!

myfonj 8y ago

Recently I have been pondering something very similar, but strictly "arpeggio"-based [0] and for regular keyboards, and whether it could be comparatively performant like normal qwerty. I've amused myself fancying scenario when using just fraction of keys in an unusual way could perhaps beat traditional touch typing professionals. I've seen some video where blind person claimed that typing on braille keyboard [1] could be insanely fast. Coincidentally, today I have been testing what my keyboard can handle in regards of how many simultaneously pressed keys it recognizes at most. (I know it depends on particular keyboard hardware and its "ghosting", but it was fun to try out [2]. I've squeezed 12 keys max.) [0] in penti vocabulary, meaning progressions of several held and released keys, mainly to circumvent hassle of definition what timespan is still "parallel" and what "progression". Releasing the last key could be the end of progression and produce output. [1] like http://www.teach-ict.com/as_a2_ict_new/ocr/AS_G061/312_software_hardware/specialist_hwsw/miniweb/pg5.htm http://www.teach-ict.com/as_a2_ict_new/ocr/AS_G061/312_softw... [2] http://myfonj.github.io/tst/keyboard-simultaneous-keys.html http://myfonj.github.io/tst/keyboard-simultaneous-keys.html not perfect, since some keys or OS key combos produces funky results…

Regenaxer 8y ago

I should explain more clearly how to generate an arpeggio in PentiKeyboard: The rules are: 1. The last key must be pressed AT LEAST 80 ms later than the second. 2. The last key must be pressed MAXIMALLY 240 ms. A backspace (DEL) is generated with middle and index finger. While pressing middle and index finger simultaneously (or longer than 240 ms) gives an "l", you get a backspace when you first press the middle finger (as long as you like, but at least 80 ms), then make a short tap with the index finger and immediately release both fingers.

Regenaxer 8y ago

Perhaps also the video snippets in this article are helpful: https://picolisp.com/wiki/?TermuxPentiPicoLisp https://picolisp.com/wiki/?TermuxPentiPicoLisp

ComputerGuru 8y ago

So I'm the only person that didn't realize this was describing a soft keyboard and not an actual physical layout until I reached "Initially the letters "P E N T I" are displayed."? Maybe this comment will save someone else the frustration.

xellisx 8y ago

I still want to try this keyboard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand

jodrellblank 8y ago
I did buy one of eBay many years ago, and after a long time of hardly any use (years), sold it again, and still miss it sometimes. The good: fantastic design and build quality. Magneto/optical key sensors way better than any key switch on a normal keyboard. Really surprisingly easy to learn and adjust to "almost-qwerty" default layout. Nice for long-form typing, fingers roll around very short movements, very comfortably. The bad: huge on a desk, they are really chunky boxes and there's a big power supply and controller box. Basically unusable for one-handed hunt-and-peck typing. Really annoying to use as a mouse (can be done - one side middle finger does big movements, the other side does fine movements, but it's still stepped keyboard-based-mousing), but also annoying to move hand from keyboard to mouse and back because it involves careful lifting of fingers out of, or into, the key-wells - fingers are surrounded by keys you don't want to press. Because of that, can't hover hand over keyboard. Ever. Awkward unless you have perfect typing style - can't habitually press a key with the "wrong" finger, now there's a correct finger for every key and no other option. Expensive even then before their big price hikes and production problems, even second hand.

drdaeman 8y ago

I just wonder if there's any chorded keyboard implemented as a smartphone bump case (with 4 buttons on the one side and one for the thumb on the other side, but maybe some other layout), so user can grip it with their hand and use for input. Should be painful to learn (obviously), but then should beat on-screen keyboards because it won't require tapping (and even looking) at the screen at all.

jodrellblank 8y ago
Indeed; who has never dreamed of a DataEgg keyboard on a smartphone.. https://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/dataegg2.gif https://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/dataegg2.gif

spilk 8y ago

This reminds me a lot of the old "BAT" keyboard: https://www.infogrip.com/bat-keyboard.html https://www.infogrip.com/bat-keyboard.html

akavel 8y ago

See also a related but more physical idea: a "Chordite" - http://www.chordite.com/protophotos.htm http://www.chordite.com/protophotos.htm - http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite/index.html http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite/index.html

ChuckMcM 8y ago

There was a one handed keyboard in BYTE magazine that was similar to this, it was built on to a half sphere so the hand naturally curled around it. My only issue with specialized keyboards is that I have at least 6[1] I use nearly every day, not all of them are easily replaced, so much harder to go back and forth between styles than to just have one style you can use. [1] Home workstation work workstation, personal laptop, work laptop, home server, work machines in the lab.

p3llin0r3 8y ago

Would love something like this for single-handed use in Android. I'm amazed at how poor my typing skills in android are, after years and years of constant use. Something just is not working!