5 ms·

In all fairness: If you sell a >3000€ laptop, people should expect to get the full value out of it. Maybe it's hard to cool CPUs in thin laptops. But then don't

In all fairness: If you sell a >3000€ laptop, people should expect to get the full value out of it. Maybe it's hard to cool CPUs in thin laptops. But then don't let people pay for expensive upgrades that have no performance benefit.

vbezhenar 8y ago
It depends on workload. If I'm typing code for a minute and then spending few seconds compiling and launching it, it won't trigger throttling, but reducing each compilation from 3 seconds to 2 seconds is certainly a benefit.
- gaius 8y ago
  “Creative” workloads require sustained CPU tho’ and that’s who Apple claims this is for
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Which "creative" workloads? Video, 3D, and photography mostly require sustained GPU. For audio, it's more the CPU.
    - gaius 8y ago
      I expect the GPU generates heat as well. Which is why all the interest in external enclosures. This entire thread is baffling to me. Everyone rushing to justify buying a new high performance laptop which they don’t mind throttling because they never needed the performance in the first place??
      - andromeduck 8y ago
        Does the internal GPU generate enough heat to throttle under typical conditions? Having the option for external GPUs is a completely different story.
        imtringued 8y ago
        If it's the 13 inch model with an iGPU only then yes. The CPU and GPU will share their total TDP.
      - wtallis 8y ago
        > Everyone rushing to justify buying a new high performance laptop which they don’t mind throttling because they never needed the performance in the first place?? Time scale is relevant. I want interactive tasks to be faster. I won't notice a 5% improvement in a job that takes long enough for a coffee break, but I will appreciate if more short tasks can cross the threshold of being indistinguishable from instantaneous.
        AstralStorm 8y ago
        We're talking 100% improvement here. This could be reducing a render from an hour to 20 minutes, a qualitative difference.
    - raverbashing 8y ago
      It's both, it's actually hard to have a very high GPU load and a low CPU load (unless you're doing crypto mining, I guess) For typical loads, both will be at a high level of usage
    - xyzzyz 8y ago
      Video encoding and photography processing mostly use CPU.
  - imtringued 8y ago
    Or people whose projects require several minutes of compilation rather than just 2 seconds...
- improbable22 8y ago
  Exactly. It seems that fast chips in slim laptops are like fast chips in phones. They may be worth having for performance on 2-second tasks, and might keep up with a desktop there. If what you care about is performance on 2-hour tasks, there's just no chance, that's a completely different thing.
zamalek 8y ago
> But then don't let people pay for expensive upgrades that have no performance benefit. The number of people who want performance stats, or at least think they need, far outnumber the amount of people who need performance. It makes absolute sense to sell these lemons, even though it is unethical.
- wukerplank 8y ago
  > it is unethical The only part that matters. Maybe it's even illegal.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  > or at least think they need, Irrelevant. If you pay premium for performance expecting to get the level of performance you've paid for then you better get what you've paid for. Otherwise we're dealing with something very similar to consumer fraud covered with a thin paternalist veil of "corporation knows best".
  - zamalek 8y ago
    > pay premium [...] get what you've paid for That makes no sense. "Premium" strictly means "at a higher cost." You can't possibly get what you have paid for with premium products, because some of your money has been spent purchasing the premium. Regardless of sour reviews such as this one, most people will continue to buy Apple products because Apple sales have managed to transcend the quality of their products. Apple will continue to push the boundaries of what is acceptable and people will continue to buy their products, defend them and praise them - no different from the past decade. The fault lies squarely with consumers. Apple is just doing what they are being asked to do: flatter things, bigger numbers, higher prices.
coldtea 8y ago
>In all fairness: If you sell a >3000€ laptop, people should expect to get the full value out of it. The full value out of it includes: 1) It not being short-lived by rampant overheating (even if it's within cpu tolerances) 2) It being quiet as you expect a MBP to be It's not supposed to render 6K 3D all day at full speed in the tropics...
- zaarn 8y ago
  I think it's supposed to render for a few dozen minutes fairly fast though and it fails at that. And I don't think it was 6K 3D footage either, considering the render time it was probably closer to 1080p60. "You're using it wrong" (ie, "it's not supposed for" with different wording) has been a long time excuse for many Apple failures at this point and I'm tired of it.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  > It's not supposed to render 6K 3D all day at full speed in the tropics Hyperbole aside, their advertising shows it hooked up to a 5K external display running the Unity debugger. So it should at least be able to render 5K 3D for a typical work day.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    And it doesn't? Before that was not part of the test in TFA -- which was quite simplistic.
whywhywhywhy 8y ago
Seems like it's hard to cool GPUs in desktops too if you're Apple >their maximum FP32 compute performance is 11 TFLOPS (which points to around 1340 MHz clock-rate for the Vega 64) and their peak memory bandwidth is 400 GB/s (indicating about 1600 MT/s memory speed), which is slower when compared to the Radeon RX Vega cards for desktops. The main reasons why Apple downlocks its GPUs are of course power consumption and heat dissipation https://www.anandtech.com/show/12152/apple-starts-imac-pro-sales-on-dec-14 https://www.anandtech.com/show/12152/apple-starts-imac-pro-s... Sad to see that this is becoming a recurring theme from Apple's pro line.
- honestoHeminway 8y ago
  Dont have to be cool, if the cult got the hots for you.
- rbanffy 8y ago
  Downclocking, by itself, tends to increase component lifetime. It makes sense for a professional machine that's not supposed to break after a couple years. Of course, if the component still overheats, that completely beats the purpose of the downclocking.
  - 52-6F-62 8y ago
    Exactly. In other tech this is called headroom. It’s just a pragmatic approach to a physical limitation. The right choice given the clientele— debatable. But just the same it’s not unique to computer manufacturers.
  - alluro2 8y ago
    Or, they've gotten a really good deal on binned chips.
noir_lord 8y ago
My ThinkPad T470P can run at 100% on a hot day, the CPU gets hot but it doesn't throttle down. Stockfish (chess engine) will batter a CPU like that.
- glogla 8y ago
  Actually, it throttles as well, see notebookcheck review: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T470p-Core-i7-GeForce-940MX-Laptop-Review.226802.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T470p-Core-i7-...

vbezhenar 8y ago

It depends on workload. If I'm typing code for a minute and then spending few seconds compiling and launching it, it won't trigger throttling, but reducing each compilation from 3 seconds to 2 seconds is certainly a benefit.

gaius 8y ago
“Creative” workloads require sustained CPU tho’ and that’s who Apple claims this is for
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- coldtea 8y ago
  Which "creative" workloads? Video, 3D, and photography mostly require sustained GPU. For audio, it's more the CPU.
  - gaius 8y ago
    I expect the GPU generates heat as well. Which is why all the interest in external enclosures. This entire thread is baffling to me. Everyone rushing to justify buying a new high performance laptop which they don’t mind throttling because they never needed the performance in the first place??
    - andromeduck 8y ago
      Does the internal GPU generate enough heat to throttle under typical conditions? Having the option for external GPUs is a completely different story.
      - imtringued 8y ago
        If it's the 13 inch model with an iGPU only then yes. The CPU and GPU will share their total TDP.
    - wtallis 8y ago
      > Everyone rushing to justify buying a new high performance laptop which they don’t mind throttling because they never needed the performance in the first place?? Time scale is relevant. I want interactive tasks to be faster. I won't notice a 5% improvement in a job that takes long enough for a coffee break, but I will appreciate if more short tasks can cross the threshold of being indistinguishable from instantaneous.
      - AstralStorm 8y ago
        We're talking 100% improvement here. This could be reducing a render from an hour to 20 minutes, a qualitative difference.
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    It's both, it's actually hard to have a very high GPU load and a low CPU load (unless you're doing crypto mining, I guess) For typical loads, both will be at a high level of usage
  - xyzzyz 8y ago
    Video encoding and photography processing mostly use CPU.
- imtringued 8y ago
  Or people whose projects require several minutes of compilation rather than just 2 seconds...
improbable22 8y ago
Exactly. It seems that fast chips in slim laptops are like fast chips in phones. They may be worth having for performance on 2-second tasks, and might keep up with a desktop there. If what you care about is performance on 2-hour tasks, there's just no chance, that's a completely different thing.

zamalek 8y ago

> But then don't let people pay for expensive upgrades that have no performance benefit. The number of people who want performance stats, or at least think they need, far outnumber the amount of people who need performance. It makes absolute sense to sell these lemons, even though it is unethical.

wukerplank 8y ago
> it is unethical The only part that matters. Maybe it's even illegal.
geezerjay 8y ago
> or at least think they need, Irrelevant. If you pay premium for performance expecting to get the level of performance you've paid for then you better get what you've paid for. Otherwise we're dealing with something very similar to consumer fraud covered with a thin paternalist veil of "corporation knows best".
- zamalek 8y ago
  > pay premium [...] get what you've paid for That makes no sense. "Premium" strictly means "at a higher cost." You can't possibly get what you have paid for with premium products, because some of your money has been spent purchasing the premium. Regardless of sour reviews such as this one, most people will continue to buy Apple products because Apple sales have managed to transcend the quality of their products. Apple will continue to push the boundaries of what is acceptable and people will continue to buy their products, defend them and praise them - no different from the past decade. The fault lies squarely with consumers. Apple is just doing what they are being asked to do: flatter things, bigger numbers, higher prices.

coldtea 8y ago

>In all fairness: If you sell a >3000€ laptop, people should expect to get the full value out of it. The full value out of it includes: 1) It not being short-lived by rampant overheating (even if it's within cpu tolerances) 2) It being quiet as you expect a MBP to be It's not supposed to render 6K 3D all day at full speed in the tropics...

zaarn 8y ago
I think it's supposed to render for a few dozen minutes fairly fast though and it fails at that. And I don't think it was 6K 3D footage either, considering the render time it was probably closer to 1080p60. "You're using it wrong" (ie, "it's not supposed for" with different wording) has been a long time excuse for many Apple failures at this point and I'm tired of it.
kalleboo 8y ago
> It's not supposed to render 6K 3D all day at full speed in the tropics Hyperbole aside, their advertising shows it hooked up to a 5K external display running the Unity debugger. So it should at least be able to render 5K 3D for a typical work day.
- coldtea 8y ago
  And it doesn't? Before that was not part of the test in TFA -- which was quite simplistic.

whywhywhywhy 8y ago

Seems like it's hard to cool GPUs in desktops too if you're Apple >their maximum FP32 compute performance is 11 TFLOPS (which points to around 1340 MHz clock-rate for the Vega 64) and their peak memory bandwidth is 400 GB/s (indicating about 1600 MT/s memory speed), which is slower when compared to the Radeon RX Vega cards for desktops. The main reasons why Apple downlocks its GPUs are of course power consumption and heat dissipation https://www.anandtech.com/show/12152/apple-starts-imac-pro-sales-on-dec-14 https://www.anandtech.com/show/12152/apple-starts-imac-pro-s... Sad to see that this is becoming a recurring theme from Apple's pro line.

honestoHeminway 8y ago
Dont have to be cool, if the cult got the hots for you.
rbanffy 8y ago
Downclocking, by itself, tends to increase component lifetime. It makes sense for a professional machine that's not supposed to break after a couple years. Of course, if the component still overheats, that completely beats the purpose of the downclocking.
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  Exactly. In other tech this is called headroom. It’s just a pragmatic approach to a physical limitation. The right choice given the clientele— debatable. But just the same it’s not unique to computer manufacturers.
- alluro2 8y ago
  Or, they've gotten a really good deal on binned chips.

noir_lord 8y ago

My ThinkPad T470P can run at 100% on a hot day, the CPU gets hot but it doesn't throttle down. Stockfish (chess engine) will batter a CPU like that.

glogla 8y ago
Actually, it throttles as well, see notebookcheck review: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T470p-Core-i7-GeForce-940MX-Laptop-Review.226802.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T470p-Core-i7-...