27 ms·

What travel insurance really means

274 points by rsbadger 8y ago

reacharavindh 8y ago
This is horrifying. Glad you made it out okay. Insurance companies always felt like a Govt sanctioned scam. These companies are the real scammers that thrive by finding grey areas and loop holes to shirk their responsibility. Making this mandatory is just the government whoring its citizens out to these companies. I cant imagine how I'd have dealt with a $20000 hole in my pocket. Come to think of it, I should seriously work on saving up for a "personal insurance fund" that I can draw from in cases of emergencies like this and not trust the insurance companies at all. Your story was a wake up call.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  I think it depends on where you live and what kind of insurance it is. In Canada I've had zero problem making claims against health, dental, car, and home insurance. But pet insurance dragged their feet every step of the way on a very obviously valid claim. Definitely have no evidence but my first Avenue of thought is that pet insurance is probably less regulated.
  - astura 8y ago
    >Canada See this CBC Marketplace piece on travel health insurance. https://youtu.be/G08phgECt3I https://youtu.be/G08phgECt3I Basically, from what I recall, those medical forms are impossible to fill out correctly and they are used to deny claims.
    - astura 8y ago
      Too late to edit, but after skimming through it a second time, here's the issues laid out in the piece: They make you fill out medical forms that are written by lawyers and for lawyers. Any minor mistake on the form is grounds for denial for any claim. So if you forgot you stubbed your toe 11 months ago, your aneurysm isn't covered. For one man interviewed they used unintentionally undisclosed GI bleeding to deny his claim for a heart attack. Even though his GI bleeding had nothing to do with his heart attack. The form is impossible to fill out 100% correctly 100% of the time. The issues are: -Patients, especially the elderly, a unaware or forget some things in their medical file, or the doctor explains things a different way than the form asks. -You have to read the fine print of all of the definitions because they have "gotcha" clauses, such as the definition of "cardiac treatment" including diagnostic tests that didn't result in any diagnosis. -Travel agents/salespeople give incorrect information to people who have questions about the form, even though they aren't authorized to give any information or assistance. They suggest contacting your doctor if you have questions filling out the form but even if you were a doctor with full access to the patient's medical file, the doctor might still get the "legalese" wrong.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        I can see two obvious solutions to this. One would be to require insurers to prove bad faith when using a form error to deny a claim. Honest mistakes should not result in denied claims. Another would be to have a statute of limitations, where the insurer has, say, three months to find and point out any mistakes, and after that they’re stuck with what they have.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  While you should certainly have a healthy savings account for emergencies, these stories are always the exception. Thousands upon thousands of claims are filed every day, and they aren't ending up with this level of pain. Heck, when I had a tree fall on my house, the mortgage company was a bigger pain in the arse than the insurance company was to deal with. They came out, took some pictures, asked me to get a quote to fix it, and sent me a check in the mail. Similar thing happened to me with car insurance. And, while I ended up paying more than I would have liked to get my gal bladder removed, that was largely because I bought a high deductible health insurance plan and knew that was a potential outcome.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > a Govt sanctioned scam And in some cases, enabled. Like city ordinances that say you cannot have a trampoline without having homeowner's insurance (though the number of insurers who will 'allow' you to have insurance is dropping - I say 'allow' because some don't say "If you have a trampoline, we won't cover any claims around it", but "If you have a trampoline, we won't offer you coverage at all"). No, I'm not (at all) advocating things like "auto insurance is theft", it's not - I see as a firefighter/paramedic the amount of damage that can be done to innocent third parties (persons and property). But some insurance requirements are rather more the result of lobbying.
dalore 8y ago
I always wonder when I buy insurance, if I need it will they actually pay out. You should be able to get insurance for your insurance. So when you need insurance and it doesn't pay out. Then that insurance company can go after the first one without having to resort to twitter or medium to shame them.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- fred_is_fred 8y ago
  For large businesses that's a huge market, it's called re-insurance. State Farm buys a policy that (for example) protects itself against hurricane claims in the state of South Carolina for 2018 against a Reinsurance company.
  - agrover 8y ago
    Yeah but that's for the insurer. Getting "insurance insurance" would be for the customer, to protect getting screwed over by their original insurer, who has chosen the short-term option of rejecting a valid claim, but which results in long-term loss of trust in the entire industry. The only solution being...more insurance? Crazy.
    - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
      I could see something like "If you need to make an insurance claim, we'll provide you a lawyer and/or other professional bureaucracy wranglers to push the claim on your behalf." I'm not sure of the exact best pricing model, but it could save the customer some serious money to have a professional involved in the claim, and arranging it ahead of time in case you need it seems reasonable. Probably this is just having a specialist firm on a specific retainer contract.
    - fred_is_fred 8y ago
      The solution in the United States at least is that states regulate insurance and you can complain to them. I'm not sure about overseas.
rootsudo 8y ago
This is why I'm an expat in the philippines.
- willio58 8y ago
  Are insurance companies better in the Philippines?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    I’m guessing, at least, out of pocket medical expenses are cheaper. Don’t they have a medical tourism thing going on?
- julienmarie 8y ago
  Expat here in the Phils too! Should create a community of HN Phils Expats
- scarejunba 8y ago
  I don't understand. Is the difference that surgeons are available on national holidays there?
ecolonsmak 8y ago
wow, that's brutal. I've been looking at something similar through this outfit - https://www.globalrescue.com/ https://www.globalrescue.com/ and now I'm not so sure if it's worth it or not.
- ghaff 8y ago
  They sound like they're probably the real deal: https://www.wired.com/2015/08/search-and-rescue-for-sale/ https://www.wired.com/2015/08/search-and-rescue-for-sale/ But, without looking at what they offer in detail, I'd be pretty sure they're quite a bit different from normal travel insurance and are priced accordingly. This is about potentially saving your life when things go sideways in some remote corner of the globe. Not hopefully paying you out some money because your tour operator went belly-up or you need to take an emergency flight home because of an injury or other problem (which is what most travel insurance emphasizes).
true_religion 8y ago
Looks like they wanted him to use NHS, unless he was dying. Luckily, I live in America, where no travel insurrer will ever tell you to return to as costs will increase by 40x.
- jochakovsky 8y ago
  I think they would still tell you to return, since any costs in the US would be paid by your regular medical insurance, not your travel insurance.
  - gnode 8y ago
    In this case I presume you'd not be paying for US insurance, as you'd expect to be backpacking for many months more.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      But the expectation of most travel insurance is that you also have regular health insurance. If you think you've found a neat hack like: -- Skip buying regular health insurance -- Buy a $300 12-month travel insurance instead -- Spend the savings traveling around for a year while being fully covered for medical expenses You're probably missing something.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ghaff 8y ago
  Oh, I'm quite sure they would as, once you're back home, you're off their hands and in the hands of your regular medical insurance company which you hopefully have. These travel policies may notionally cover some level of urgent medical care but they're mostly designed (and priced for) cancelations due to injury/sickness/emergency, lost property, and getting you back home even if that requires a helicopter from some remote hillside (hopefully). I'm sure there are 12 month policies you can buy that legitimately cover international health care for a 12 month period in addition to other travel-related risks but they'll cost a lot more.
nrki 8y ago
Since moving to the UK I've found that insurers here have SO much more legalese in their contracts. It's really hard to figure out what they actually cover ("two-fifths of fuck all"). My top "Gold" level travel insurance doesn't even cover my phone getting stolen while overseas.
Bucephalus355 8y ago
Absolutely shameful. Has this insurer ever paid out an actual claim to anyone?
wjnc 8y ago
What a story. But it's not insurance that's bad, it's (local) insurers. In the Netherlands for international coverage there are two main support companies covering all insurers that provide help while abroad. That help is pretty extensive. If you deliver early abroad, they might send a nurse or doctor to help fly you back. They can book you flights and taxis if a relative dies or get you a new car pretty much anywhere worldwide. This all from personal experience, my professional experience gives me the same impression. In this case they would have probably guided him with a nurse or doctor to Singapore. Which leads to my only gripe about this story. Why did he act though and not ask for help from the get go. Is there no international support in UK policies? Flying while sedated and bleeding... Any insurer should see paying out as the prime deliverance of the customer promise. You don't skimp on paying out, but do try to be very careful about getting swindled. Getting called after 20k is spent would get the flags up in any insurer, good faith or bad. My 2 cents would be that a good timeline and documented claim (like this blog post without the fluff) could still get him the 20k. It's an insured event, without the time for proper evaluation and without malice. That's a good basis for any claim.
emurray 8y ago
Warning for anyone who's squeamish: there are some fairly gruesome photos of an injury in the article.
- trocadero 8y ago
  And a ridiculous amount of gifs of random crap
  - justinator 8y ago
    And a dire need for an editor!
    - rsbadger 8y ago
      my first ever blog post attempt, I thought the gifs helped make up for my poor writing abilities
      - malyk 8y ago
        I loved the gifs and thought it was well written and 'fun' to read. You can't please everyone.
        justinator 8y ago
        There's always room for improvement.
      - justinator 8y ago
        The first thing I'd cut would be, "I hate blogs because of x" Some of us write personal blogs to get practice in writing :)
cooervo 8y ago
damn lets upvote this. This horrible company needs the bad PR.
- paulcole 8y ago
  Might be a silly question, but how do you even know he bought insurance from Insure and Go? You’re awful quick to want to shame “this horrible company.”
  - clavalle 8y ago
    Let me ask you this: how much would you bet that he didn't? Because I'd be willing to bet $100 that he did. Am I sure? No. It is impossible to be sure. But I think it's highly likely considering the detail of the article and my difficulty in imagining why he'd put so much effort into a lie that could land him in hot water. So, let's dump the idea that people can't take action no matter how small unless we are 100% sure of something. Almost nothing is 100%. But things can be likely. Put your money where your mouth is. If we get enough people in the pool, perhaps we can cut in the author of the article in return for documentation.
    - rsbadger 8y ago
      Now you can be sure: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nmgqv7gqz55uhl/Screenshot%202018-07-18%2001.19.08.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nmgqv7gqz55uhl/Screenshot%202018-...
kinard 8y ago
Contact the financial ombudsman, they will be able to help, and in a lot of cases they side with the consumer. http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk
- bancrates 8y ago
  I would like to second and strongly advise this advice to contact the ombudsman. I got cheap UK travel insurance, got my jaw broken in Australia, racked up huge hospital bills, hotel bills, curtailment bills... They tried every trick in the book to not pay. Although it took over a year the ombudsman made them repay every penny. It seems you documented everything well - the ombudsman attaches a huge weighting to the medical opinions of treating doctors, so you have a good shot.
throwaway9d0291 8y ago
This is why it's important to read the policy itself, not just the marketing materials. Usually they have the specific details of what you have to do and what you're entitled to receive. The insurer definitely didn't handle it well but it would have gone much smoother if the expectations were properly set by reading the policy. The travel insurance that comes for my credit card for example makes it quite clear that you have to contact the insurer as soon as possible after an accident and that in most cases, they'll opt to have you repatriated for care in your home country.
- icebraining 8y ago
  in most cases, they'll opt to have you repatriated for care in your home country. Yes; and that's a shitty thing to require when the person has a broken rib and a detached fingertip and is 20h+ away from the home country. The problem wasn't that he didn't know the policy, it was the policy itself.
  - TwoBit 8y ago
    Certainly it was partly his fault for not reading the policy.
    - Flimm 8y ago
      He did read the policy. He also read the 94 page medical manual they later sent him, which presumably wasn't in the original policy. He found the reason in all those pages of text why he was eligible for getting his costs covered, and they still replied with: > “This is a general exclusion and doesn’t apply to you specifically. Our decision still stands with curtailment. No further medical input needed. Why do you feel that he shares any part of the blame here? Why do you expect him to be an expert in reading and interpreting insurance policies in the middle of a medical emergency?
      - trocadero 8y ago
        He's being willfully ignorant there. That quote comes from the section saying when an airline requires medical clearance. Two pages later there are several pages of specific medical conditions and guidance on if they should fly. One of them is "Full plaster cast" and it says that you can fly 2 days after getting one.
nwsm 8y ago
I'm shocked at how much expense you weren't looking for them to cover.
timwaagh 8y ago
yeah thats why i try to avoid buying insurance. i only buy it if my parents insist or it is mandated by law.
21 8y ago
Question for those who might know about this: If I find myself in a similar situation as in this article, is there some sort of "insurance professional handler" laywer kind of guy you can hire so that he does what is necessary and who knows all the traps, so that you have good chances of being covered?
- astura 8y ago
  This person is in the UK, I can't speak for the UK but in the US you can contact the Department of Insurance for your state if you have issues with insurance companies. They are responsible for regulating insurance companies and making sure their actions are within the bounds of the law.
  - 21 8y ago
    I meant during the thing. Like you don't talk to the police without a lawyer present, maybe you shouldn't talk to the insurer without a professional present.
    - DubiousPusher 8y ago
      It's probably best to start by trying to work with them in good faith. But figure out within 24-48 hours what they intend to cover. If you can't get that specific for lack of information feel them out. If they're being difficult at all, speak with an attorney.
refurb 8y ago
This approach by the company is not surprising at all. I have family in Canada who come and visit the US. They buy the insurance. One of them had a heart attach while in the US. Insurance paid something like $50,000 to put them on a private medical jet back to Canada. Far cheaper than having the care in the US.
- justinator 8y ago
  I think what surprises me is that they wanted to fly the guy half way around the world. Canada and the US border each other. I DO think that the gentleman made a bad decision saying that he was intent on staying in-country for 6 months afterwards. That's probably all the insurance company needed to think, "Yeah, this guy is using travel insurance as regular insurance" Still, I do think the gentleman get the wrong end of the stick. I know I won't use this company, but now I really don't know who to use.
  - rsbadger 8y ago
    my insurance was for 18 months of travel though, so i intended to travel for 18 months. I think that's reasonable. Maybe my wording came out wrong in the post, I wasn't telling them, "no i wont come home" I was telling them I didn't have a return flight pre booked because I was planning on travelling for 6 more months yet.
    - refurb 8y ago
      Agreed they shafted you on that. If the company didn't want to pay for care, they should have offered to fly you back home and back to SE Asia. That is, if it didn't impact your care in a negative way. They were definitely trying to be cheap.
    - justinator 8y ago
      I'm surprised they would allow you in country for > year without a return flight. I couldn't get even in the EU without showing them I had a way to get out. What sort of visa did you have? You do mention being a, "digital nomad" which sort of signals to me that you're not into coming back to wherever you started. I don't know the best type of health insurance you should set up for that, but I wouldn't be surprised if traveler insurance companies don't want to be thought of as, "regular health insurance, but for people traveling".
trocadero 8y ago
I'm somewhat sympathetic to the insurance company here. Travel insurance is there to take care of emergency medical care. It's not for long term care. The guy clearly didn't want to travel because he preferred to be cared in Singapore. From his e-mail: >I intend to stay in Asia for some time yet. I did consider travelling home to have surgery in the UK, but the medical Service here is excellent and I'm already scheduled in for the procedure on Monday. I was concerned about the long haul flight and travel time with a broken hand and fractured rib, as well as potential waiting times on the NHS. So he's pretty clearly trying to game the situation. He wanted to keep traveling and avoid the NHS. The letter from the doctor saying he was not fit to fly simply states: >The patient Badger Ryan Sean was admitted from 11/6 to 12/6 for an operation for a right index finger proximal phalanx avulsion fracture on 31/5 and was not fit for flying before his operation for his fracture. It's reasonable for the insurance company to ask for more details and a specific reason why he wasn't fit to fly.
- mamurphy 8y ago
  Yeah, it's unclear to me why he didn't ask for/demand coverage for the emergency finger-attaching procedure. In the article, he skipped the details on that in terms of supposedly having to inform them beforehand for an emergency procedure. That emergency procedure, not the follow-up, seems more in line with what the plan is designed to cover.
  - trocadero 8y ago
    >Yeah, it's unclear to me why he didn't ask for/demand coverage for the emergency finger-attaching procedure. That's bizarre to me as well. Why does he think not claiming reimbursement for covered expenses is being reasonable?
    - J-dawg 8y ago
      That part seemed really strange. You bought the policy, claim for whatever you’re entitled to! Part of me wonders whether this set fraud alarm bells ringing and made them scrutinise his case more. (Not that that excuses anything the company did subsequently).
otterley 8y ago
Expecting insurers to be magnanimous will always lead to disappointment and anger. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that insurers will nearly always err on the side of denying a claim if they can find an excuse to. That's why it's important to (a) read the fine print in the policies you purchase and (b) hire an attorney if you believe that you have been unfairly denied a claim. Even if a claim is valid, insurers will also do whatever it takes to minimize their payouts. In this case, paying for transport to the UK for additional treatment would have been far cheaper than paying a Singaporean hospital for it, and so it's unsurprising that they pressured the claimant to hop on a flight instead of stay in Singapore since the injury did not contraindicate air travel (or at least there was significant disagreement as to that question).
markbnj 8y ago
When our daughter visited Bali with a friend last year she was also in a motorbike crash. I guess a lot of people think it will be fun to ride a motorbike in Bali. Her hand was badly cut and needed stitches. We had to transfer the cash to her friend's debit account so it could be paid out on the spot, but once that was done the ER docs did a great job sewing her up, and $700 seemed like a hell of a bargain compared to what a visit to the ER and some stitches probably would have cost in the U.S.
- forgot-my-pw 8y ago
  I'm very suspicious that the article mentions $22,000 hospital bed cost for 5 nights stay (excluding surgery).
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    That hospital stay was in Singapore, not Indonesia (where he got told to take a taxi to the hospital, rather than 'wait' for an ambulance, and that the surgeons felt that he needed urgent surgery, but there was no-one around that night, and there was a holiday tomorrow, so 'day after tomorrow... maybe').
    - rsbadger 8y ago
      so glad somebody gets it
  - caymanjim 8y ago
    In Singapore, with first-rate hospitals, and the highest cost of living in the world? That's not even a little surprising.
    - idontpost 8y ago
      > the highest cost of living in the world Singapore is not THAT expensive. Yes, it's first-rate, but not even close to highest COL[1] [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Singapore&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Singapore&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
luispedrocoelho 8y ago
From his telling, the company was not very communicative when he contacted them, but, fundamentally, saying he should fly back to the UK for treatment and they'll cover the flight does not seem unreasonable. He complains that "unless you are injured so horrifically that you cannot survive another moment without life saving surgery, odds are they’ll just tell you to fly home and have the surgery for free." But, to me, this is exactly what travel insurance is (which is why it's so cheap). Expecting fancy Singaporean hospitals unless it is strictly necessary seems totally unreasonable. If they were not so communicative, he also basically decided to not get back to them on the vital "is he fit to fly?" issue for a few days (he had been OK to fly to Singapore after all), until after the surgery. There were a few days to go until the surgery, so that was enough time to get him back to the UK. Also, why hadn't he gotten in touch before? He texts pictures to friends, books flights, &c, and does not call the insurer or even ask somebody else to call on his behalf? For what it's worth, I think he made the right decision in getting treatment in Singapore at his own expense, but that was still his decision.
- astura 8y ago
  >this is exactly what travel insurance is (which is why it's so cheap) And that's one of the huge issues!! Very often people don't read their policies so they have misunderstandings about their coverage!! This is a big problem! I always read all of my policies, I suggest everyone else does the same. I want to be very clear what losses are covered and what my deductible will be before any losses occur. In fact, for legal documents, insurance policies are pretty easy to understand. I really wish he included the text of his policy. While I have sympathy for him, I think he got himself into a pickle when he flew to Singapore than claimed he was unable to fly. Yes, Singapore is a million times closer to Indonesia than the UK, but he should have known if he left Indonesia the insurance company would have expected him to return to the UK.
  - luispedrocoelho 8y ago
    To be sure, travel insurance is very often a very good idea. But it's travel insurance not "whole-world, any hospital, health insurance" (which I am sure you can buy, but not at the same price).
forgot-my-pw 8y ago
There's no way a 5 day hospital stay in Bali (excluding surgery) costs $22,000. That sounds way too crazy. No way the locals can pay for something like that.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  The locals in the US can't afford the full-charge rate for hospital care, either. That doesn't stop it from being the rate actually billed before any discounts the particular patient may be qualified for, and, as such, the rate charged to someone who has the misfortune of not being qualified for any discounts.
- mertd 8y ago
  Singapore, not Bali.
  - forgot-my-pw 8y ago
    That makes more sense. Thought it was in Bali.
- BLanen 8y ago
  Locals are insured.
- thiscatis 8y ago
  Did you read the article? It's Singapore, not Bali where he was quoted that price.
opwieurposiu 8y ago
Insurers should be required to list the statics for the number of accepted and rejected claims on the policy website. Currently there is no way to tell which insurance is more or less likely to screw you.
- codemati 8y ago
  Or, which insurer has customers who do not read their policies. Accepted vs. rejected claims is meaningless on its own.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - moltar 8y ago
    It is not meaningless. If the insurance policy is 1000 pages of legalese it’s a dark pattern designed to dissuade you from reading it. Ultimately, the accepted to denied ratio is the measure to watch for as a consumer.
J-dawg 8y ago
I wonder whether the author has contacted any of the consumer rights TV programmes such as "Watchdog" [0], which are quite popular in the UK. Martin Lewis [1] might also be interested. This story seems tailor-made for them. It's an emotive story, connected to a wider issue ("Can YOU trust your travel insurer?"), and just in time for summer holidays! [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74 [1] https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/ https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/
weeksie 8y ago
He paid £275 for 18 months of travel insurance? Well yeah, of course they are going to want to fly him back to the NHS. As a US traveller my insurance was $2600 for 12 months. When you enter into a legal agreement (insurance) read the fine print, it'll save you a lot of disappointment.
- gnode 8y ago
  > read the fine print People should be able to expect that insurance is as advertised, and there's no "not really" in the fine print. UK courts are much less accepting of such things than the US. The infamous case is PPI misselling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_protection_insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_protection_insurance
  - rsbadger 8y ago
    Also worth noting my cover was Worldwide (except USA) insurance is substantially cheaper outside of the states
  - weeksie 8y ago
    Insurance policies are not the same as an iTunes TOS. The policy is an agreement with a company outlining very specific circumstances in which they pay you. I'm sure the company was garbage (they sure sound that way) but when I've had travel insurance it has always outlines the circumstances where I could make a claim. In the case of an insurance policy the fine print is what you're buying. Again, to be fair, the insurance company could have had a misleading policy and if that's the case they should be raked over the coals.
ChuckMcM 8y ago
I really feel for the guy, he has gone through a lot of pain and suffering. That said, as someone who has gone through life and used my share of insurance, I think the guys attitude is exactly backwards. There are huge numbers of people out there working insurance fraud schemes. I nearly ran into a couple that was trying to 'brake unexpectedly and get insurance payments.' Since I leave enough following distance I didn't hit them and they were quite irritated. It would have been funny if it were not sad. So the insurance folks try to set up a lot of processes that minimize that fraud or make it harder on perpetrators. This guy seems to have set out with the idea that insurance was trying to rip him off, and by operating under that assumption, taking actions (or not taking actions) that make himself look suspicious. An alternative course of action might have been to familiarize himself with the policy before hand, and the processes and requirements he needs to meet when he needs to use it. And then set up things like putting into his wallet, "If I am being treated at a hospital or clinic please call this number and inform this insurance company xx xx xx xxxx" My sister in law is a nurse and we know a guy who works as a volunteer medic around the world, and when you come into the hospital they will always look through your wallet for identification and insurance information, help them out there. Life is so much harder if you assume other people are "out to rip you off" or "get you" as your going in position. It can ruin possible relationships and it certainly damages business relationships.
- rsbadger 8y ago
  This is true, but the reality is I doubted my insurance would pay from the start. I was expecting to pay for everything myself. It was only once I got the quotes in Singapore that I realised I might not actually be able to afford it that I resorted to the insurance. And their response was even worse than I expected it to be. I appreciate there are countless fraud attempts and they need to protect themselves, but I was lucky, it could have been a lot worse, I'm sure for other people it is. And I guarantee you when you're facing emergency surgery the LAST thing on your mind is "I best call my insurer and start the form filling process". It's fuck, FUCK. This fucking sucks.
  - ChuckMcM 8y ago
    This part it sooo true: And I guarantee you when you're facing emergency surgery the LAST thing on your mind is "I best call my insurer and start the form filling process". Something that I carry on me when I'm travelling in my wallet is a piece of paper. It is written in both English and the predominant language of where I'm travelling. This paper is titled "Instructions and information for emergency personnel." It has my name, home address, blood type, allergies, short medical history, insurance numbers and international numbers to call for authorization. It also includes numbers of people who can be called for more information (like my primary care physician) It is easy to make, write it up before the trip, run it through Google translate for the destination language, and fold it up into my wallet. I got this idea from a friend of my father's who was a diplomat and so travelling a lot. He had stories about how it had saved his life in when he crashed his bike in the Alps. He too said that the last thing on your mind is explaining all of this stuff to people when he was injured. But once he realized that he didn't have to explain it, he only needed to let them know who to ask to get the information.
robjan 8y ago
The insurance company is likely not in the wrong here. I think part of the problem is that, as Brits, we are used to not worrying about this kind of thing. If we get hurt in the UK we get unlimited "free" healthcare (paid through taxes) and there are reciprocal agreements throughout Europe whereby healthcare is either free or has a nominal charge to reduce Moral Hazard. We don't have to think about communicating with an insurance company. Since moving abroad I have gotten used to carrying my insurance card and calling their number before any elective insurable event takes place. I feel that the OP was unfortunate in finding this out the hard way.
- aembleton 8y ago
  You really should have health insurance when travelling around Europe. A friend of mine broke her arm and had a one night stay in a hospital in Germany. It came to €1000. Her insurance were excellent and paid the hospital, in full, directly. The insurance company is STA - http://www.statravel.com/travel-insurance.htm http://www.statravel.com/travel-insurance.htm
- DanBC 8y ago
  You need your EHIC as a minimum to take advantage of the arrangements.
pawelwentpawel 8y ago
Given the context of this thread - what would be a travel insurer for a UK resident that digital nomads of HN would actually recommend? Not necessarily the cheapest, just the most reliable one.
- vertex-four 8y ago
  I believe the thing to do is to get global medical insurance, not travel insurance. Yes, it’s going to be pricier, yes, if you don’t plan on flying back to your home country as soon as you’re out of an emergency situation it’s necessary.
ordinaryperson 8y ago
Once I filed for travel insurance after my travel plans to Patagonia were delayed by a blizzard. Getting there required 3 separate flights and 2-hr cab ride in the middle of nowhere Chile, which cost like $200. After Kafkaesque paperwork my claim was initially denied. They said I didn't have my boarding pass from the 3rd flight (first 2 legs were Air Canada, easy to reproduce, but the third was some small, domestic Chilean airline with a barely-there website and a Spanish-only hotline). Who saves a boarding pass at the start of a 2-week hiking trip through the Patagonian wilderness? Why is that third flight stub necessary, since I'm asking to be reimbursed for the cab ride when I got there (which I have documented proof for)? I had to arrange for a conference call with a Spanish translator and the insurer (srsly), and eventually they paid up. But how many people go that far? It felt like the plot of "The Rainmaker". The only other time I had to use travel insurance was when I lost my brand new iPod while changing planes in Seoul, South Korea. Even though the insurance covered "lost or stolen" they claimed they couldn't reimburse me because I hadn't filed a police report with the South Korean airport police (it was the middle of the night, I don't speak Korean and I didn't realize it was gone until later). And why do I need to have a police report if it was lost? So I can definitely sympathize with how unscrupulous these travel insurance rackets are. That being said, I don't think asking him to fly home was that unreasonable. How are they supposed to validate the care he's getting there? He just going to dictate his care and hand over a massive bill from Singapore? But usually this involves taking them to court and getting a settlement.
ghaff 8y ago
This whole thread has me curious. If you're in a country with national health insurance (and no private supplementary insurance), are you pretty much always advised to buy travel insurance when out of the country? In the US, decent private medical plans typically cover emergency medical treatment when traveling. Pretty much the only time I buy travel insurance is when I either have large non-refundable payments because you never know when you'll have an accident or a family emergency or I'm doing some specific activity like a Nepal trek where an evacuation could be very costly. I'd never buy travel insurance because of potentially lost luggage or extra flights/taxi rides.
sunstone 8y ago
There's no point in even buying travel insurance if your upfront assumption is that you're not likely to need it so you're going to buy on price. On the other hand insurance is tricky at the best of times. (shill warning) In situations like this I put my trust in Costco because they have a track record of consistently providing a good deal the price. I once knew a guy who ran a roofing business. He said that it was easy for him to insure his workers if they fell off the roof, but difficult to get coverage for when they hit the ground.
kioleanu 8y ago
What I was astonished to find out is that insurers actually have people or departments whose sole job is to find reasons not to pay and how they cling to absolutely every detail, true or not. More or less the same thing happened to me with a 6 months travel insurance. I had an unfortunate series of light medical problems that racked up about 1500 EUR. I was somehow lucky that I over-informed the insurer anytime anything concerned them and they pre-approved each doctor's visit. When it was time to get my money back, they denied the claim saying that I flew back home one month into the trip (and then left again) and that legally concluded my trip. That was, of course, non sense. I wrote them a letter saying that if they don't return my money in 30 days, I will fill in a complaint with the insurance oversight authority in my country. They didn't so I did. The nice part is that this authority shoots first and asks questions later so in a few days I got a really passive aggressive letter saying they will be paying in full, that they already decided that a week before so there was no need for me to file the complaint (I was, of course, not informed) and they asked me to withdraw my complaint.
- rsbadger 8y ago
  I'm assuming Insure and Go will be in touch at some point requesting me to take down my post as it's amassed 30k views in 24 hours. But I won't. Even if they don't pay out because of it, I'd prefer that people have access to this information. Paying me the $22k would be a drop in the ocean for them, but hopefully, the post will live on for years.
humanhair 8y ago
Well done Banger u did a good job friend

274 points by rsbadger 8y ago

This is horrifying. Glad you made it out okay. Insurance companies always felt like a Govt sanctioned scam. These companies are the real scammers that thrive by finding grey areas and loop holes to shirk their responsibility. Making this mandatory is just the government whoring its citizens out to these companies. I cant imagine how I'd have dealt with a $20000 hole in my pocket. Come to think of it, I should seriously work on saving up for a "personal insurance fund" that I can draw from in cases of emergencies like this and not trust the insurance companies at all. Your story was a wake up call.

Waterluvian 8y ago
I think it depends on where you live and what kind of insurance it is. In Canada I've had zero problem making claims against health, dental, car, and home insurance. But pet insurance dragged their feet every step of the way on a very obviously valid claim. Definitely have no evidence but my first Avenue of thought is that pet insurance is probably less regulated.
- astura 8y ago
  >Canada See this CBC Marketplace piece on travel health insurance. https://youtu.be/G08phgECt3I https://youtu.be/G08phgECt3I Basically, from what I recall, those medical forms are impossible to fill out correctly and they are used to deny claims.
  - astura 8y ago
    Too late to edit, but after skimming through it a second time, here's the issues laid out in the piece: They make you fill out medical forms that are written by lawyers and for lawyers. Any minor mistake on the form is grounds for denial for any claim. So if you forgot you stubbed your toe 11 months ago, your aneurysm isn't covered. For one man interviewed they used unintentionally undisclosed GI bleeding to deny his claim for a heart attack. Even though his GI bleeding had nothing to do with his heart attack. The form is impossible to fill out 100% correctly 100% of the time. The issues are: -Patients, especially the elderly, a unaware or forget some things in their medical file, or the doctor explains things a different way than the form asks. -You have to read the fine print of all of the definitions because they have "gotcha" clauses, such as the definition of "cardiac treatment" including diagnostic tests that didn't result in any diagnosis. -Travel agents/salespeople give incorrect information to people who have questions about the form, even though they aren't authorized to give any information or assistance. They suggest contacting your doctor if you have questions filling out the form but even if you were a doctor with full access to the patient's medical file, the doctor might still get the "legalese" wrong.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I can see two obvious solutions to this. One would be to require insurers to prove bad faith when using a form error to deny a claim. Honest mistakes should not result in denied claims. Another would be to have a statute of limitations, where the insurer has, say, three months to find and point out any mistakes, and after that they’re stuck with what they have.
zdragnar 8y ago
While you should certainly have a healthy savings account for emergencies, these stories are always the exception. Thousands upon thousands of claims are filed every day, and they aren't ending up with this level of pain. Heck, when I had a tree fall on my house, the mortgage company was a bigger pain in the arse than the insurance company was to deal with. They came out, took some pictures, asked me to get a quote to fix it, and sent me a check in the mail. Similar thing happened to me with car insurance. And, while I ended up paying more than I would have liked to get my gal bladder removed, that was largely because I bought a high deductible health insurance plan and knew that was a potential outcome.
FireBeyond 8y ago
> a Govt sanctioned scam And in some cases, enabled. Like city ordinances that say you cannot have a trampoline without having homeowner's insurance (though the number of insurers who will 'allow' you to have insurance is dropping - I say 'allow' because some don't say "If you have a trampoline, we won't cover any claims around it", but "If you have a trampoline, we won't offer you coverage at all"). No, I'm not (at all) advocating things like "auto insurance is theft", it's not - I see as a firefighter/paramedic the amount of damage that can be done to innocent third parties (persons and property). But some insurance requirements are rather more the result of lobbying.

dalore 8y ago

I always wonder when I buy insurance, if I need it will they actually pay out. You should be able to get insurance for your insurance. So when you need insurance and it doesn't pay out. Then that insurance company can go after the first one without having to resort to twitter or medium to shame them.

deleted 8y ago
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fred_is_fred 8y ago
For large businesses that's a huge market, it's called re-insurance. State Farm buys a policy that (for example) protects itself against hurricane claims in the state of South Carolina for 2018 against a Reinsurance company.
- agrover 8y ago
  Yeah but that's for the insurer. Getting "insurance insurance" would be for the customer, to protect getting screwed over by their original insurer, who has chosen the short-term option of rejecting a valid claim, but which results in long-term loss of trust in the entire industry. The only solution being...more insurance? Crazy.
  - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
    I could see something like "If you need to make an insurance claim, we'll provide you a lawyer and/or other professional bureaucracy wranglers to push the claim on your behalf." I'm not sure of the exact best pricing model, but it could save the customer some serious money to have a professional involved in the claim, and arranging it ahead of time in case you need it seems reasonable. Probably this is just having a specialist firm on a specific retainer contract.
  - fred_is_fred 8y ago
    The solution in the United States at least is that states regulate insurance and you can complain to them. I'm not sure about overseas.

rootsudo 8y ago

This is why I'm an expat in the philippines.

willio58 8y ago
Are insurance companies better in the Philippines?
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  I’m guessing, at least, out of pocket medical expenses are cheaper. Don’t they have a medical tourism thing going on?
julienmarie 8y ago
Expat here in the Phils too! Should create a community of HN Phils Expats
scarejunba 8y ago
I don't understand. Is the difference that surgeons are available on national holidays there?

ecolonsmak 8y ago

wow, that's brutal. I've been looking at something similar through this outfit - https://www.globalrescue.com/ https://www.globalrescue.com/ and now I'm not so sure if it's worth it or not.

ghaff 8y ago
They sound like they're probably the real deal: https://www.wired.com/2015/08/search-and-rescue-for-sale/ https://www.wired.com/2015/08/search-and-rescue-for-sale/ But, without looking at what they offer in detail, I'd be pretty sure they're quite a bit different from normal travel insurance and are priced accordingly. This is about potentially saving your life when things go sideways in some remote corner of the globe. Not hopefully paying you out some money because your tour operator went belly-up or you need to take an emergency flight home because of an injury or other problem (which is what most travel insurance emphasizes).

true_religion 8y ago

Looks like they wanted him to use NHS, unless he was dying. Luckily, I live in America, where no travel insurrer will ever tell you to return to as costs will increase by 40x.

jochakovsky 8y ago
I think they would still tell you to return, since any costs in the US would be paid by your regular medical insurance, not your travel insurance.
- gnode 8y ago
  In this case I presume you'd not be paying for US insurance, as you'd expect to be backpacking for many months more.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    But the expectation of most travel insurance is that you also have regular health insurance. If you think you've found a neat hack like: -- Skip buying regular health insurance -- Buy a $300 12-month travel insurance instead -- Spend the savings traveling around for a year while being fully covered for medical expenses You're probably missing something.
deleted 8y ago
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ghaff 8y ago
Oh, I'm quite sure they would as, once you're back home, you're off their hands and in the hands of your regular medical insurance company which you hopefully have. These travel policies may notionally cover some level of urgent medical care but they're mostly designed (and priced for) cancelations due to injury/sickness/emergency, lost property, and getting you back home even if that requires a helicopter from some remote hillside (hopefully). I'm sure there are 12 month policies you can buy that legitimately cover international health care for a 12 month period in addition to other travel-related risks but they'll cost a lot more.

nrki 8y ago

Since moving to the UK I've found that insurers here have SO much more legalese in their contracts. It's really hard to figure out what they actually cover ("two-fifths of fuck all"). My top "Gold" level travel insurance doesn't even cover my phone getting stolen while overseas.

Bucephalus355 8y ago

Absolutely shameful. Has this insurer ever paid out an actual claim to anyone?

wjnc 8y ago

What a story. But it's not insurance that's bad, it's (local) insurers. In the Netherlands for international coverage there are two main support companies covering all insurers that provide help while abroad. That help is pretty extensive. If you deliver early abroad, they might send a nurse or doctor to help fly you back. They can book you flights and taxis if a relative dies or get you a new car pretty much anywhere worldwide. This all from personal experience, my professional experience gives me the same impression. In this case they would have probably guided him with a nurse or doctor to Singapore. Which leads to my only gripe about this story. Why did he act though and not ask for help from the get go. Is there no international support in UK policies? Flying while sedated and bleeding... Any insurer should see paying out as the prime deliverance of the customer promise. You don't skimp on paying out, but do try to be very careful about getting swindled. Getting called after 20k is spent would get the flags up in any insurer, good faith or bad. My 2 cents would be that a good timeline and documented claim (like this blog post without the fluff) could still get him the 20k. It's an insured event, without the time for proper evaluation and without malice. That's a good basis for any claim.

emurray 8y ago

Warning for anyone who's squeamish: there are some fairly gruesome photos of an injury in the article.

trocadero 8y ago
And a ridiculous amount of gifs of random crap
- justinator 8y ago
  And a dire need for an editor!
  - rsbadger 8y ago
    my first ever blog post attempt, I thought the gifs helped make up for my poor writing abilities
    - malyk 8y ago
      I loved the gifs and thought it was well written and 'fun' to read. You can't please everyone.
      - justinator 8y ago
        There's always room for improvement.
    - justinator 8y ago
      The first thing I'd cut would be, "I hate blogs because of x" Some of us write personal blogs to get practice in writing :)

cooervo 8y ago

damn lets upvote this. This horrible company needs the bad PR.

paulcole 8y ago
Might be a silly question, but how do you even know he bought insurance from Insure and Go? You’re awful quick to want to shame “this horrible company.”
- clavalle 8y ago
  Let me ask you this: how much would you bet that he didn't? Because I'd be willing to bet $100 that he did. Am I sure? No. It is impossible to be sure. But I think it's highly likely considering the detail of the article and my difficulty in imagining why he'd put so much effort into a lie that could land him in hot water. So, let's dump the idea that people can't take action no matter how small unless we are 100% sure of something. Almost nothing is 100%. But things can be likely. Put your money where your mouth is. If we get enough people in the pool, perhaps we can cut in the author of the article in return for documentation.
  - rsbadger 8y ago
    Now you can be sure: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nmgqv7gqz55uhl/Screenshot%202018-07-18%2001.19.08.png?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nmgqv7gqz55uhl/Screenshot%202018-...

kinard 8y ago

Contact the financial ombudsman, they will be able to help, and in a lot of cases they side with the consumer. http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk

bancrates 8y ago
I would like to second and strongly advise this advice to contact the ombudsman. I got cheap UK travel insurance, got my jaw broken in Australia, racked up huge hospital bills, hotel bills, curtailment bills... They tried every trick in the book to not pay. Although it took over a year the ombudsman made them repay every penny. It seems you documented everything well - the ombudsman attaches a huge weighting to the medical opinions of treating doctors, so you have a good shot.

throwaway9d0291 8y ago

This is why it's important to read the policy itself, not just the marketing materials. Usually they have the specific details of what you have to do and what you're entitled to receive. The insurer definitely didn't handle it well but it would have gone much smoother if the expectations were properly set by reading the policy. The travel insurance that comes for my credit card for example makes it quite clear that you have to contact the insurer as soon as possible after an accident and that in most cases, they'll opt to have you repatriated for care in your home country.

icebraining 8y ago
in most cases, they'll opt to have you repatriated for care in your home country. Yes; and that's a shitty thing to require when the person has a broken rib and a detached fingertip and is 20h+ away from the home country. The problem wasn't that he didn't know the policy, it was the policy itself.
- TwoBit 8y ago
  Certainly it was partly his fault for not reading the policy.
  - Flimm 8y ago
    He did read the policy. He also read the 94 page medical manual they later sent him, which presumably wasn't in the original policy. He found the reason in all those pages of text why he was eligible for getting his costs covered, and they still replied with: > “This is a general exclusion and doesn’t apply to you specifically. Our decision still stands with curtailment. No further medical input needed. Why do you feel that he shares any part of the blame here? Why do you expect him to be an expert in reading and interpreting insurance policies in the middle of a medical emergency?
    - trocadero 8y ago
      He's being willfully ignorant there. That quote comes from the section saying when an airline requires medical clearance. Two pages later there are several pages of specific medical conditions and guidance on if they should fly. One of them is "Full plaster cast" and it says that you can fly 2 days after getting one.

nwsm 8y ago

I'm shocked at how much expense you weren't looking for them to cover.

timwaagh 8y ago

yeah thats why i try to avoid buying insurance. i only buy it if my parents insist or it is mandated by law.

21 8y ago

Question for those who might know about this: If I find myself in a similar situation as in this article, is there some sort of "insurance professional handler" laywer kind of guy you can hire so that he does what is necessary and who knows all the traps, so that you have good chances of being covered?

astura 8y ago
This person is in the UK, I can't speak for the UK but in the US you can contact the Department of Insurance for your state if you have issues with insurance companies. They are responsible for regulating insurance companies and making sure their actions are within the bounds of the law.
- 21 8y ago
  I meant during the thing. Like you don't talk to the police without a lawyer present, maybe you shouldn't talk to the insurer without a professional present.
  - DubiousPusher 8y ago
    It's probably best to start by trying to work with them in good faith. But figure out within 24-48 hours what they intend to cover. If you can't get that specific for lack of information feel them out. If they're being difficult at all, speak with an attorney.

refurb 8y ago

This approach by the company is not surprising at all. I have family in Canada who come and visit the US. They buy the insurance. One of them had a heart attach while in the US. Insurance paid something like $50,000 to put them on a private medical jet back to Canada. Far cheaper than having the care in the US.

justinator 8y ago
I think what surprises me is that they wanted to fly the guy half way around the world. Canada and the US border each other. I DO think that the gentleman made a bad decision saying that he was intent on staying in-country for 6 months afterwards. That's probably all the insurance company needed to think, "Yeah, this guy is using travel insurance as regular insurance" Still, I do think the gentleman get the wrong end of the stick. I know I won't use this company, but now I really don't know who to use.
- rsbadger 8y ago
  my insurance was for 18 months of travel though, so i intended to travel for 18 months. I think that's reasonable. Maybe my wording came out wrong in the post, I wasn't telling them, "no i wont come home" I was telling them I didn't have a return flight pre booked because I was planning on travelling for 6 more months yet.
  - refurb 8y ago
    Agreed they shafted you on that. If the company didn't want to pay for care, they should have offered to fly you back home and back to SE Asia. That is, if it didn't impact your care in a negative way. They were definitely trying to be cheap.
  - justinator 8y ago
    I'm surprised they would allow you in country for > year without a return flight. I couldn't get even in the EU without showing them I had a way to get out. What sort of visa did you have? You do mention being a, "digital nomad" which sort of signals to me that you're not into coming back to wherever you started. I don't know the best type of health insurance you should set up for that, but I wouldn't be surprised if traveler insurance companies don't want to be thought of as, "regular health insurance, but for people traveling".

trocadero 8y ago

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the insurance company here. Travel insurance is there to take care of emergency medical care. It's not for long term care. The guy clearly didn't want to travel because he preferred to be cared in Singapore. From his e-mail: >I intend to stay in Asia for some time yet. I did consider travelling home to have surgery in the UK, but the medical Service here is excellent and I'm already scheduled in for the procedure on Monday. I was concerned about the long haul flight and travel time with a broken hand and fractured rib, as well as potential waiting times on the NHS. So he's pretty clearly trying to game the situation. He wanted to keep traveling and avoid the NHS. The letter from the doctor saying he was not fit to fly simply states: >The patient Badger Ryan Sean was admitted from 11/6 to 12/6 for an operation for a right index finger proximal phalanx avulsion fracture on 31/5 and was not fit for flying before his operation for his fracture. It's reasonable for the insurance company to ask for more details and a specific reason why he wasn't fit to fly.

mamurphy 8y ago
Yeah, it's unclear to me why he didn't ask for/demand coverage for the emergency finger-attaching procedure. In the article, he skipped the details on that in terms of supposedly having to inform them beforehand for an emergency procedure. That emergency procedure, not the follow-up, seems more in line with what the plan is designed to cover.
- trocadero 8y ago
  >Yeah, it's unclear to me why he didn't ask for/demand coverage for the emergency finger-attaching procedure. That's bizarre to me as well. Why does he think not claiming reimbursement for covered expenses is being reasonable?
  - J-dawg 8y ago
    That part seemed really strange. You bought the policy, claim for whatever you’re entitled to! Part of me wonders whether this set fraud alarm bells ringing and made them scrutinise his case more. (Not that that excuses anything the company did subsequently).

otterley 8y ago

Expecting insurers to be magnanimous will always lead to disappointment and anger. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that insurers will nearly always err on the side of denying a claim if they can find an excuse to. That's why it's important to (a) read the fine print in the policies you purchase and (b) hire an attorney if you believe that you have been unfairly denied a claim. Even if a claim is valid, insurers will also do whatever it takes to minimize their payouts. In this case, paying for transport to the UK for additional treatment would have been far cheaper than paying a Singaporean hospital for it, and so it's unsurprising that they pressured the claimant to hop on a flight instead of stay in Singapore since the injury did not contraindicate air travel (or at least there was significant disagreement as to that question).

markbnj 8y ago

When our daughter visited Bali with a friend last year she was also in a motorbike crash. I guess a lot of people think it will be fun to ride a motorbike in Bali. Her hand was badly cut and needed stitches. We had to transfer the cash to her friend's debit account so it could be paid out on the spot, but once that was done the ER docs did a great job sewing her up, and $700 seemed like a hell of a bargain compared to what a visit to the ER and some stitches probably would have cost in the U.S.

forgot-my-pw 8y ago
I'm very suspicious that the article mentions $22,000 hospital bed cost for 5 nights stay (excluding surgery).
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  That hospital stay was in Singapore, not Indonesia (where he got told to take a taxi to the hospital, rather than 'wait' for an ambulance, and that the surgeons felt that he needed urgent surgery, but there was no-one around that night, and there was a holiday tomorrow, so 'day after tomorrow... maybe').
  - rsbadger 8y ago
    so glad somebody gets it
- caymanjim 8y ago
  In Singapore, with first-rate hospitals, and the highest cost of living in the world? That's not even a little surprising.
  - idontpost 8y ago
    > the highest cost of living in the world Singapore is not THAT expensive. Yes, it's first-rate, but not even close to highest COL[1] [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Singapore&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Singapore&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

luispedrocoelho 8y ago

From his telling, the company was not very communicative when he contacted them, but, fundamentally, saying he should fly back to the UK for treatment and they'll cover the flight does not seem unreasonable. He complains that "unless you are injured so horrifically that you cannot survive another moment without life saving surgery, odds are they’ll just tell you to fly home and have the surgery for free." But, to me, this is exactly what travel insurance is (which is why it's so cheap). Expecting fancy Singaporean hospitals unless it is strictly necessary seems totally unreasonable. If they were not so communicative, he also basically decided to not get back to them on the vital "is he fit to fly?" issue for a few days (he had been OK to fly to Singapore after all), until after the surgery. There were a few days to go until the surgery, so that was enough time to get him back to the UK. Also, why hadn't he gotten in touch before? He texts pictures to friends, books flights, &c, and does not call the insurer or even ask somebody else to call on his behalf? For what it's worth, I think he made the right decision in getting treatment in Singapore at his own expense, but that was still his decision.

astura 8y ago
>this is exactly what travel insurance is (which is why it's so cheap) And that's one of the huge issues!! Very often people don't read their policies so they have misunderstandings about their coverage!! This is a big problem! I always read all of my policies, I suggest everyone else does the same. I want to be very clear what losses are covered and what my deductible will be before any losses occur. In fact, for legal documents, insurance policies are pretty easy to understand. I really wish he included the text of his policy. While I have sympathy for him, I think he got himself into a pickle when he flew to Singapore than claimed he was unable to fly. Yes, Singapore is a million times closer to Indonesia than the UK, but he should have known if he left Indonesia the insurance company would have expected him to return to the UK.
- luispedrocoelho 8y ago
  To be sure, travel insurance is very often a very good idea. But it's travel insurance not "whole-world, any hospital, health insurance" (which I am sure you can buy, but not at the same price).

forgot-my-pw 8y ago

There's no way a 5 day hospital stay in Bali (excluding surgery) costs $22,000. That sounds way too crazy. No way the locals can pay for something like that.

dragonwriter 8y ago
The locals in the US can't afford the full-charge rate for hospital care, either. That doesn't stop it from being the rate actually billed before any discounts the particular patient may be qualified for, and, as such, the rate charged to someone who has the misfortune of not being qualified for any discounts.
mertd 8y ago
Singapore, not Bali.
- forgot-my-pw 8y ago
  That makes more sense. Thought it was in Bali.
BLanen 8y ago
Locals are insured.
thiscatis 8y ago
Did you read the article? It's Singapore, not Bali where he was quoted that price.

opwieurposiu 8y ago

Insurers should be required to list the statics for the number of accepted and rejected claims on the policy website. Currently there is no way to tell which insurance is more or less likely to screw you.

codemati 8y ago
Or, which insurer has customers who do not read their policies. Accepted vs. rejected claims is meaningless on its own.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- moltar 8y ago
  It is not meaningless. If the insurance policy is 1000 pages of legalese it’s a dark pattern designed to dissuade you from reading it. Ultimately, the accepted to denied ratio is the measure to watch for as a consumer.

J-dawg 8y ago

I wonder whether the author has contacted any of the consumer rights TV programmes such as "Watchdog" [0], which are quite popular in the UK. Martin Lewis [1] might also be interested. This story seems tailor-made for them. It's an emotive story, connected to a wider issue ("Can YOU trust your travel insurer?"), and just in time for summer holidays! [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74 [1] https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/ https://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/

weeksie 8y ago

He paid £275 for 18 months of travel insurance? Well yeah, of course they are going to want to fly him back to the NHS. As a US traveller my insurance was $2600 for 12 months. When you enter into a legal agreement (insurance) read the fine print, it'll save you a lot of disappointment.

gnode 8y ago
> read the fine print People should be able to expect that insurance is as advertised, and there's no "not really" in the fine print. UK courts are much less accepting of such things than the US. The infamous case is PPI misselling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_protection_insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_protection_insurance
- rsbadger 8y ago
  Also worth noting my cover was Worldwide (except USA) insurance is substantially cheaper outside of the states
- weeksie 8y ago
  Insurance policies are not the same as an iTunes TOS. The policy is an agreement with a company outlining very specific circumstances in which they pay you. I'm sure the company was garbage (they sure sound that way) but when I've had travel insurance it has always outlines the circumstances where I could make a claim. In the case of an insurance policy the fine print is what you're buying. Again, to be fair, the insurance company could have had a misleading policy and if that's the case they should be raked over the coals.

ChuckMcM 8y ago

I really feel for the guy, he has gone through a lot of pain and suffering. That said, as someone who has gone through life and used my share of insurance, I think the guys attitude is exactly backwards. There are huge numbers of people out there working insurance fraud schemes. I nearly ran into a couple that was trying to 'brake unexpectedly and get insurance payments.' Since I leave enough following distance I didn't hit them and they were quite irritated. It would have been funny if it were not sad. So the insurance folks try to set up a lot of processes that minimize that fraud or make it harder on perpetrators. This guy seems to have set out with the idea that insurance was trying to rip him off, and by operating under that assumption, taking actions (or not taking actions) that make himself look suspicious. An alternative course of action might have been to familiarize himself with the policy before hand, and the processes and requirements he needs to meet when he needs to use it. And then set up things like putting into his wallet, "If I am being treated at a hospital or clinic please call this number and inform this insurance company xx xx xx xxxx" My sister in law is a nurse and we know a guy who works as a volunteer medic around the world, and when you come into the hospital they will always look through your wallet for identification and insurance information, help them out there. Life is so much harder if you assume other people are "out to rip you off" or "get you" as your going in position. It can ruin possible relationships and it certainly damages business relationships.

rsbadger 8y ago
This is true, but the reality is I doubted my insurance would pay from the start. I was expecting to pay for everything myself. It was only once I got the quotes in Singapore that I realised I might not actually be able to afford it that I resorted to the insurance. And their response was even worse than I expected it to be. I appreciate there are countless fraud attempts and they need to protect themselves, but I was lucky, it could have been a lot worse, I'm sure for other people it is. And I guarantee you when you're facing emergency surgery the LAST thing on your mind is "I best call my insurer and start the form filling process". It's fuck, FUCK. This fucking sucks.
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  This part it sooo true: And I guarantee you when you're facing emergency surgery the LAST thing on your mind is "I best call my insurer and start the form filling process". Something that I carry on me when I'm travelling in my wallet is a piece of paper. It is written in both English and the predominant language of where I'm travelling. This paper is titled "Instructions and information for emergency personnel." It has my name, home address, blood type, allergies, short medical history, insurance numbers and international numbers to call for authorization. It also includes numbers of people who can be called for more information (like my primary care physician) It is easy to make, write it up before the trip, run it through Google translate for the destination language, and fold it up into my wallet. I got this idea from a friend of my father's who was a diplomat and so travelling a lot. He had stories about how it had saved his life in when he crashed his bike in the Alps. He too said that the last thing on your mind is explaining all of this stuff to people when he was injured. But once he realized that he didn't have to explain it, he only needed to let them know who to ask to get the information.

robjan 8y ago

The insurance company is likely not in the wrong here. I think part of the problem is that, as Brits, we are used to not worrying about this kind of thing. If we get hurt in the UK we get unlimited "free" healthcare (paid through taxes) and there are reciprocal agreements throughout Europe whereby healthcare is either free or has a nominal charge to reduce Moral Hazard. We don't have to think about communicating with an insurance company. Since moving abroad I have gotten used to carrying my insurance card and calling their number before any elective insurable event takes place. I feel that the OP was unfortunate in finding this out the hard way.

aembleton 8y ago
You really should have health insurance when travelling around Europe. A friend of mine broke her arm and had a one night stay in a hospital in Germany. It came to €1000. Her insurance were excellent and paid the hospital, in full, directly. The insurance company is STA - http://www.statravel.com/travel-insurance.htm http://www.statravel.com/travel-insurance.htm
DanBC 8y ago
You need your EHIC as a minimum to take advantage of the arrangements.

pawelwentpawel 8y ago

Given the context of this thread - what would be a travel insurer for a UK resident that digital nomads of HN would actually recommend? Not necessarily the cheapest, just the most reliable one.

vertex-four 8y ago
I believe the thing to do is to get global medical insurance, not travel insurance. Yes, it’s going to be pricier, yes, if you don’t plan on flying back to your home country as soon as you’re out of an emergency situation it’s necessary.

ordinaryperson 8y ago

Once I filed for travel insurance after my travel plans to Patagonia were delayed by a blizzard. Getting there required 3 separate flights and 2-hr cab ride in the middle of nowhere Chile, which cost like $200. After Kafkaesque paperwork my claim was initially denied. They said I didn't have my boarding pass from the 3rd flight (first 2 legs were Air Canada, easy to reproduce, but the third was some small, domestic Chilean airline with a barely-there website and a Spanish-only hotline). Who saves a boarding pass at the start of a 2-week hiking trip through the Patagonian wilderness? Why is that third flight stub necessary, since I'm asking to be reimbursed for the cab ride when I got there (which I have documented proof for)? I had to arrange for a conference call with a Spanish translator and the insurer (srsly), and eventually they paid up. But how many people go that far? It felt like the plot of "The Rainmaker". The only other time I had to use travel insurance was when I lost my brand new iPod while changing planes in Seoul, South Korea. Even though the insurance covered "lost or stolen" they claimed they couldn't reimburse me because I hadn't filed a police report with the South Korean airport police (it was the middle of the night, I don't speak Korean and I didn't realize it was gone until later). And why do I need to have a police report if it was lost? So I can definitely sympathize with how unscrupulous these travel insurance rackets are. That being said, I don't think asking him to fly home was that unreasonable. How are they supposed to validate the care he's getting there? He just going to dictate his care and hand over a massive bill from Singapore? But usually this involves taking them to court and getting a settlement.

ghaff 8y ago

This whole thread has me curious. If you're in a country with national health insurance (and no private supplementary insurance), are you pretty much always advised to buy travel insurance when out of the country? In the US, decent private medical plans typically cover emergency medical treatment when traveling. Pretty much the only time I buy travel insurance is when I either have large non-refundable payments because you never know when you'll have an accident or a family emergency or I'm doing some specific activity like a Nepal trek where an evacuation could be very costly. I'd never buy travel insurance because of potentially lost luggage or extra flights/taxi rides.

sunstone 8y ago

There's no point in even buying travel insurance if your upfront assumption is that you're not likely to need it so you're going to buy on price. On the other hand insurance is tricky at the best of times. (shill warning) In situations like this I put my trust in Costco because they have a track record of consistently providing a good deal the price. I once knew a guy who ran a roofing business. He said that it was easy for him to insure his workers if they fell off the roof, but difficult to get coverage for when they hit the ground.

kioleanu 8y ago

What I was astonished to find out is that insurers actually have people or departments whose sole job is to find reasons not to pay and how they cling to absolutely every detail, true or not. More or less the same thing happened to me with a 6 months travel insurance. I had an unfortunate series of light medical problems that racked up about 1500 EUR. I was somehow lucky that I over-informed the insurer anytime anything concerned them and they pre-approved each doctor's visit. When it was time to get my money back, they denied the claim saying that I flew back home one month into the trip (and then left again) and that legally concluded my trip. That was, of course, non sense. I wrote them a letter saying that if they don't return my money in 30 days, I will fill in a complaint with the insurance oversight authority in my country. They didn't so I did. The nice part is that this authority shoots first and asks questions later so in a few days I got a really passive aggressive letter saying they will be paying in full, that they already decided that a week before so there was no need for me to file the complaint (I was, of course, not informed) and they asked me to withdraw my complaint.

rsbadger 8y ago
I'm assuming Insure and Go will be in touch at some point requesting me to take down my post as it's amassed 30k views in 24 hours. But I won't. Even if they don't pay out because of it, I'd prefer that people have access to this information. Paying me the $22k would be a drop in the ocean for them, but hopefully, the post will live on for years.

humanhair 8y ago

Well done Banger u did a good job friend