6 ms·

How Israel, in Dark of Night, Torched Its Way to Iran’s Nuclear Secrets

89 points by SREinSF 8y ago

IBM 8y ago
Netflix should make this into a movie or series. Plenty of good material to draw from: this heist, assassinating Iranian scientists with magnetic bombs on motorcycles [1][2] and Stuxnet [3]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/11/iran-nuclear-scientist-killed https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/11/iran-nuclear-s... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nuclear_scientists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nucle... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/world/middleeast/16stuxnet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/world/middleeast/16stuxne...
- mirimir 8y ago
  One could make a similar series about the Soviets stealing from the US.[0] Maybe not so dramatic, though. Or about Israelis stealing from the US.[1] 0) https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/spies-who-spilled-atomic-bomb-secrets-127922660/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/spies-who-spilled-ato... 1) https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/11/how-israel-stole-the-bomb/ https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/11/how-israel-stole-the-b...
  - dewey 8y ago
    I think “The Americans” is basically just that. Great series.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      And then there's Jack Barsky.[0] It's a heartwarming story. See this picture of him with his German and American children.[1] Decent book too: Deep Undercover: My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America 0) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38846022 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38846022 1) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/thought-smarter-everybody-kgb-spy-jack-barsky#img-5 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/thought-smarte...
- Area12 8y ago
  Given that there will be people insisting that the main objective of the program was nuclear power, not weapons, a show like that would be risky. Does Netflix want their shows accused of glorifying murder? I'm aware that there is the argument, perhaps with evidence, that Israel was halting weapons research aimed at them, but Netflix may not want to take the risk that the debate goes against them.
  - shaunpersad 8y ago
    > Does Netflix want their shows accused of glorifying murder? There are plenty of Netflix shows that glorify murder already. The Punisher comes to mind.
  - IBM 8y ago
    There's no reason why the show would have to glorify murder or be otherwise partial to Israel.
  - KKKKkkkk1 8y ago
    Maybe those people should read the quoted article. Last week, at the invitation of the Israeli government, three reporters, including one from The New York Times, were shown key documents from the trove. Many confirmed what inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency, in report after report, had suspected: Despite Iranian insistence that its program was for peaceful purposes, the country had worked in the past to systematically assemble everything it needed to produce atomic weapons.
  - nkristoffersen 8y ago
    Have you seen Netflix? Many many many shows exclusively about murderers :-)
aqibgatoo 8y ago
Finding a way to bomb another nation for fossil fuels
- throwaway8879 8y ago
  This is a simpleton's way of looking at an issue as complex as this. It's intellectual laziness to try to water down geopolitical/historical motivations by claiming that "ooooh they did it for the oil!".
  - eloff 8y ago
    Good to see a voice of reason. All too often I think the left and the right make strawmen of each other's positions and attack them with vitriol. I don't know how we're supposed to discuss and understand complex issues in a complex world when people want everything simple, black and white where good is white and black is evil. The world is complicated. We need calm, deep and reasoned thinking more than ever.
  - omeid2 8y ago
    It is true that the problem is more complicated than just Oil. However, if you look beyond the superficial aspects, the bottom line of all conflicts throughout history boils down to the two interchangeable currencies of money and power. Perhaps the reason Oil seems such a convenient rationale is because it is readily convertible to power and money.
    - GW150914 8y ago
      Well yes, with money as a proxy for power, but that makes it so oversimplified as to be meaningless. Ideology, religion, a desire or freedom, resources, sheer malice, and much more is the nuance that matters too. You can boil anything humans do to power and resources, but is that really informative? If you do that, then the Allies and Axis in WWII are indistinguishable, and that’s unwise.
      - omeid2 8y ago
exabrial 8y ago
Real life Ocean's 11? This seems more like The Bank Job (2008)!
imbokodo 8y ago
> Netanyahu...proved Iranian...intent to resume bomb production Israel has dozens, if not hundreds, of nuclear bombs. Why should Iran not have nuclear bombs as well? The US and US industry was pushing for Iran to turn more towards nuclear production in the 1970s. Iran also has made offers for a nuclear-free Middle East agreement - offers Israel has always rejected. What is the line - Arab and Muslim states in the Middle East are not allowed to have nuclear bombs, but Jewish ones can? Some people might say Iran has theocratic and undemocratic elements. But the US and Israel had little problem with the Shah's lack of democracy. Also the US and England backed the conservative, fundamentalist mullahs in Iran from the 1950s to the 1970s against democratic republicans like Mossadegh. The US only turned against conservative fundamentalist mullahs in Iran at the very end of the 1970s who wanted US (and USSR) interference with Iran's internal affairs ended.
- gonvaled 8y ago
  You will always be downvoted for these views here. Israel has a natural right to nuclear bombs, the only country to bomb civilians with nuclear bombs has also a natural right, and the rest of the world are either bad guys or free riders.
- khazhou 8y ago
  There's a non- Jewish-vs-Muslim argument: no country that does not today have nukes should be allowed to develop them. Hold the line. It may not be "fair", but it's safer for the world.
  - davidf18 8y ago
    The history is that France gave the Israelis the Dimona Reactor originally as payback for helping the French and British with the Suez Canal nationalized by Egypt. The next French PM said he was giving Israel the technology to prevent another Holocaust. Although the Arab nations have tried repeatedly to destroy Israel they are not afraid of Israel using the bomb against them. Nor can they conquer Israel because Israel has the bomb. Hence it provides an excuse to never start another war with Israel. The Saudis and other Sunni Arab countries are terrified of a nuclear Shia Iran and would build their own bomb if Iran had one. As one might imagine, the Saudis are very supportive of Israel's efforts against Iran.
ajnin 8y ago
I don't really get it. If all they had to show were 15 year old documents, so dating before the Iranian nuclear accord, wouldn't this indicate that Iran did in fact fulfill its side of the agreement ? The main argument seems to be that if they kept the archives then it must mean that they want to resume their research program at some point in the future. I'm sure if Israel had any clear and direct evidence showing that Iran violated the deal they would have shown it.
- kss238 8y ago
  The article says Iran was hiding and saving these documents so that when the 15 year ban on nuclear material expired, Iran could startup it's nuclear program from where it left off.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- chris11 8y ago
  I've heard responses from former Obama appointees that the documents in general were not surprising. They believed that Iran had an active nuclear program, was lying about it, and was hiding it. So they tried to create a deal that would not require countries to trust that Iran was complying. Overall it looks like Iran was complying with the deal, even if we can't assume good faith. So Netanyahu's speech came across as overtly political.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    The “problem” with the deal form Israel’s point of view is that the restrictions are temporary on both the enrichment and the long range missile programmes. The Iran deal would work out only if there would be a regime change before the restrictions expire, and while 15 years are enough for the US it’s not enough for Israel considering that the Iranian nuclear program has started even before the revolution, then with the full support of the US. While the documents should surprise no one their release by the Israelis was done to make it harder for Iran to continue to run “we never worked on nuclear weapons” story they at least from Israel’s point of view manage to successfully sell to quite a lot of people.
poster123 8y ago
The leaders of Iran have called for the destruction of Israel many times, so of course Israel will do what it can to thwart the nuclear weapons program of Iran.
pknerd 8y ago
Why is it flagged?
- touristtam 8y ago
  It's quite a politically heavy article, on a Technology first board.
  - YouAreGreat 8y ago
    It's about Israelis killing scientists and engineers, hitting dangerously close to home on a technology first board.
firic 8y ago
> But if sanctions resume, and more Western companies leave Iran, it is possible that Iranian leaders will decide to resume nuclear fuel production. and > By the time the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Yukiya Amano, was finally permitted to visit the site in 2015, it was empty, though the agency’s report indicated that it looked as if equipment had been removed. I don't understand the authors conclusion. He is saying that without a nuclear deal Iran will try to develop the bomb. Later he shows that even with a deal Iran tries to make a bomb and not report it. My intuition says that the solution is to create a new deal. One that makes it harder for Iran to hide nuclear bomb making facilities and doesn't involve sending them $1.7 billion dollars in cash [1] [1] http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-cash-20160907-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-c...

89 points by SREinSF 8y ago

IBM 8y ago

Netflix should make this into a movie or series. Plenty of good material to draw from: this heist, assassinating Iranian scientists with magnetic bombs on motorcycles [1][2] and Stuxnet [3]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/11/iran-nuclear-scientist-killed https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/11/iran-nuclear-s... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nuclear_scientists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nucle... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/world/middleeast/16stuxnet.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/world/middleeast/16stuxne...

mirimir 8y ago
One could make a similar series about the Soviets stealing from the US.[0] Maybe not so dramatic, though. Or about Israelis stealing from the US.[1] 0) https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/spies-who-spilled-atomic-bomb-secrets-127922660/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/spies-who-spilled-ato... 1) https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/11/how-israel-stole-the-bomb/ https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/11/how-israel-stole-the-b...
- dewey 8y ago
  I think “The Americans” is basically just that. Great series.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    And then there's Jack Barsky.[0] It's a heartwarming story. See this picture of him with his German and American children.[1] Decent book too: Deep Undercover: My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America 0) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38846022 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38846022 1) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/thought-smarter-everybody-kgb-spy-jack-barsky#img-5 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/11/thought-smarte...
Area12 8y ago
Given that there will be people insisting that the main objective of the program was nuclear power, not weapons, a show like that would be risky. Does Netflix want their shows accused of glorifying murder? I'm aware that there is the argument, perhaps with evidence, that Israel was halting weapons research aimed at them, but Netflix may not want to take the risk that the debate goes against them.
- shaunpersad 8y ago
  > Does Netflix want their shows accused of glorifying murder? There are plenty of Netflix shows that glorify murder already. The Punisher comes to mind.
- IBM 8y ago
  There's no reason why the show would have to glorify murder or be otherwise partial to Israel.
- KKKKkkkk1 8y ago
  Maybe those people should read the quoted article. Last week, at the invitation of the Israeli government, three reporters, including one from The New York Times, were shown key documents from the trove. Many confirmed what inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency, in report after report, had suspected: Despite Iranian insistence that its program was for peaceful purposes, the country had worked in the past to systematically assemble everything it needed to produce atomic weapons.
- nkristoffersen 8y ago
  Have you seen Netflix? Many many many shows exclusively about murderers :-)

aqibgatoo 8y ago

Finding a way to bomb another nation for fossil fuels

throwaway8879 8y ago
This is a simpleton's way of looking at an issue as complex as this. It's intellectual laziness to try to water down geopolitical/historical motivations by claiming that "ooooh they did it for the oil!".
- eloff 8y ago
  Good to see a voice of reason. All too often I think the left and the right make strawmen of each other's positions and attack them with vitriol. I don't know how we're supposed to discuss and understand complex issues in a complex world when people want everything simple, black and white where good is white and black is evil. The world is complicated. We need calm, deep and reasoned thinking more than ever.
- omeid2 8y ago
  It is true that the problem is more complicated than just Oil. However, if you look beyond the superficial aspects, the bottom line of all conflicts throughout history boils down to the two interchangeable currencies of money and power. Perhaps the reason Oil seems such a convenient rationale is because it is readily convertible to power and money.
  - GW150914 8y ago
    Well yes, with money as a proxy for power, but that makes it so oversimplified as to be meaningless. Ideology, religion, a desire or freedom, resources, sheer malice, and much more is the nuance that matters too. You can boil anything humans do to power and resources, but is that really informative? If you do that, then the Allies and Axis in WWII are indistinguishable, and that’s unwise.
    - omeid2 8y ago

exabrial 8y ago

Real life Ocean's 11? This seems more like The Bank Job (2008)!

imbokodo 8y ago

> Netanyahu...proved Iranian...intent to resume bomb production Israel has dozens, if not hundreds, of nuclear bombs. Why should Iran not have nuclear bombs as well? The US and US industry was pushing for Iran to turn more towards nuclear production in the 1970s. Iran also has made offers for a nuclear-free Middle East agreement - offers Israel has always rejected. What is the line - Arab and Muslim states in the Middle East are not allowed to have nuclear bombs, but Jewish ones can? Some people might say Iran has theocratic and undemocratic elements. But the US and Israel had little problem with the Shah's lack of democracy. Also the US and England backed the conservative, fundamentalist mullahs in Iran from the 1950s to the 1970s against democratic republicans like Mossadegh. The US only turned against conservative fundamentalist mullahs in Iran at the very end of the 1970s who wanted US (and USSR) interference with Iran's internal affairs ended.

gonvaled 8y ago
You will always be downvoted for these views here. Israel has a natural right to nuclear bombs, the only country to bomb civilians with nuclear bombs has also a natural right, and the rest of the world are either bad guys or free riders.
khazhou 8y ago
There's a non- Jewish-vs-Muslim argument: no country that does not today have nukes should be allowed to develop them. Hold the line. It may not be "fair", but it's safer for the world.
- davidf18 8y ago
  The history is that France gave the Israelis the Dimona Reactor originally as payback for helping the French and British with the Suez Canal nationalized by Egypt. The next French PM said he was giving Israel the technology to prevent another Holocaust. Although the Arab nations have tried repeatedly to destroy Israel they are not afraid of Israel using the bomb against them. Nor can they conquer Israel because Israel has the bomb. Hence it provides an excuse to never start another war with Israel. The Saudis and other Sunni Arab countries are terrified of a nuclear Shia Iran and would build their own bomb if Iran had one. As one might imagine, the Saudis are very supportive of Israel's efforts against Iran.

ajnin 8y ago

I don't really get it. If all they had to show were 15 year old documents, so dating before the Iranian nuclear accord, wouldn't this indicate that Iran did in fact fulfill its side of the agreement ? The main argument seems to be that if they kept the archives then it must mean that they want to resume their research program at some point in the future. I'm sure if Israel had any clear and direct evidence showing that Iran violated the deal they would have shown it.

kss238 8y ago
The article says Iran was hiding and saving these documents so that when the 15 year ban on nuclear material expired, Iran could startup it's nuclear program from where it left off.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
chris11 8y ago
I've heard responses from former Obama appointees that the documents in general were not surprising. They believed that Iran had an active nuclear program, was lying about it, and was hiding it. So they tried to create a deal that would not require countries to trust that Iran was complying. Overall it looks like Iran was complying with the deal, even if we can't assume good faith. So Netanyahu's speech came across as overtly political.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  The “problem” with the deal form Israel’s point of view is that the restrictions are temporary on both the enrichment and the long range missile programmes. The Iran deal would work out only if there would be a regime change before the restrictions expire, and while 15 years are enough for the US it’s not enough for Israel considering that the Iranian nuclear program has started even before the revolution, then with the full support of the US. While the documents should surprise no one their release by the Israelis was done to make it harder for Iran to continue to run “we never worked on nuclear weapons” story they at least from Israel’s point of view manage to successfully sell to quite a lot of people.

poster123 8y ago

The leaders of Iran have called for the destruction of Israel many times, so of course Israel will do what it can to thwart the nuclear weapons program of Iran.

pknerd 8y ago

Why is it flagged?

touristtam 8y ago
It's quite a politically heavy article, on a Technology first board.
- YouAreGreat 8y ago
  It's about Israelis killing scientists and engineers, hitting dangerously close to home on a technology first board.

firic 8y ago

> But if sanctions resume, and more Western companies leave Iran, it is possible that Iranian leaders will decide to resume nuclear fuel production. and > By the time the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Yukiya Amano, was finally permitted to visit the site in 2015, it was empty, though the agency’s report indicated that it looked as if equipment had been removed. I don't understand the authors conclusion. He is saying that without a nuclear deal Iran will try to develop the bomb. Later he shows that even with a deal Iran tries to make a bomb and not report it. My intuition says that the solution is to create a new deal. One that makes it harder for Iran to hide nuclear bomb making facilities and doesn't involve sending them $1.7 billion dollars in cash [1] [1] http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-cash-20160907-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-iran-payment-c...