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You're responding as if you didn't read the article and don't realize how widespread it was. We don't consider a child's consent as valid even if they were told

You're responding as if you didn't read the article and don't realize how widespread it was. We don't consider a child's consent as valid even if they were told the correct facts about what they were taking, which they weren't.

onetimemanytime 8y ago
Even adults had no say if the state wanted them to do x. That's how things worked back then in Soviet style countries.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  > in Soviet style countries. Conveniently leaving out the experiments performed by the US military, for example, in the sixties. I chose the US because that's the most prominent anti-pole to the USSR, not because they did anything unique that no other country has done or would do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... I don't like whataboutism as much as the next guy, but if you put on blinders to only see what fits your world view I think it's okay to put things into perspective. Humans don't always care about other humans, that was, is and will be true and has nothing to do with "communism" or whatever name you happen to despise the most. By the way, I grew up in East Germany and participated in the protests end of the eighties, so I know quite a bit about the bad parts, but also about the good ones. I also lived in the US for nearly a decade (back in Germany now). There are many other things one could consider, for example that now people do bad things to their own bodies as part of work culture when they go to work even though they are sick. A lot less pressure on yourself to do that in East Germany (yes, we did not produce nearly as much but I don't think it was because people actually stayed at home when they were sick). Another example, from an East German perspective the discussion about "free range kids". We were all "free range" in East Germany and often sent on our ways all alone even when still very young. Who would have thought, culture is complex and the system is only one of many variables, and regardless of the system people will be people and all kinds of stuff develops in a culture that you cannot attribute to some "system" identified by a word.
  - golergka 8y ago
    That's a good point, but there's a crucial difference you're not considering. In US, programs like MK Ultra were actually trying to be secret and had a severe public outlash as they were published. Now, these programs are widespread knowledge and you won't find a reasonable US person who would defend them. In USSR, on the other hand, state-backed violence was only "save face" secret that everybody was more or less aware of. Solzhenitsyn's revelations made a much bigger splash outside of the USSR than within exactly because he didn't reveal anything most of the population wasn't already aware of - but the people themselves didn't mind that much. Even today, most Russians would say that state-sponsored violence of USSR, which affected tens of millions of people, was a good thing, and leaders who perpetrated it are still viewed favorably.
    - watwut 8y ago
      > he didn't reveal anything most of the population wasn't already aware of - but the people themselves didn't mind that much The scope of purges was such that it was impossible not to know. When the book went out, Soviet union was much safer place to live in, simply because main purge already ended. After communism fell, he was also not only one to write about these things or talk about them, bookstores were full of memoirs. Current support for those things has a lot to do with both contemporary politics and propaganda and with the way young democracy was mishandled.
    - ItsMe000001 8y ago
      Are you out of your f...ing mind??? What distortions of mind are necessary - on a Trump-like level - to try to twist it until the US looks good no matter what shit you guys do? You will surely come up with some good justifications for anything as long as it's done by "your" country. From all its many many wars and killings to internal things like asset forfeiture or biased sentencing of the poor to for-profit prisons. Yes, if you got the money and don't belong to the wrong group you can live quite nicely in the US of A.
  - adventured 8y ago
    You're using a prevalent concept - near total state control over persons in the former Soviet Union - and contrasting it with examples that were rare. That's why your retort is invalid. It's fundamentally why people aren't shocked at what the USSR did to people during its existence, and are shocked when they find out about some of the US military's experiments, such as the army's test of airborne dispersion of germs in St. Louis and other cities: https://www.livescience.com/23795-large-area-coverage-dangers.html https://www.livescience.com/23795-large-area-coverage-danger...
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  > in Soviet style countries. Conveniently leaving out the experiments performed by the US military, for example, in the sixties. I chose the US because that's the most prominent anti-pole to the USSR, not because they did anything unique that no other country has done or would do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio.... I don't like whataboutism as much as the next guy, but if you put on blinders to only see what fits your world view I think it's okay to put things into perspective. Humans don't always care about other humans, that was, is and will be true and has nothing to do with "communism" or whatever name you happen to despise the most.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

Even adults had no say if the state wanted them to do x. That's how things worked back then in Soviet style countries.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
> in Soviet style countries. Conveniently leaving out the experiments performed by the US military, for example, in the sixties. I chose the US because that's the most prominent anti-pole to the USSR, not because they did anything unique that no other country has done or would do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio... I don't like whataboutism as much as the next guy, but if you put on blinders to only see what fits your world view I think it's okay to put things into perspective. Humans don't always care about other humans, that was, is and will be true and has nothing to do with "communism" or whatever name you happen to despise the most. By the way, I grew up in East Germany and participated in the protests end of the eighties, so I know quite a bit about the bad parts, but also about the good ones. I also lived in the US for nearly a decade (back in Germany now). There are many other things one could consider, for example that now people do bad things to their own bodies as part of work culture when they go to work even though they are sick. A lot less pressure on yourself to do that in East Germany (yes, we did not produce nearly as much but I don't think it was because people actually stayed at home when they were sick). Another example, from an East German perspective the discussion about "free range kids". We were all "free range" in East Germany and often sent on our ways all alone even when still very young. Who would have thought, culture is complex and the system is only one of many variables, and regardless of the system people will be people and all kinds of stuff develops in a culture that you cannot attribute to some "system" identified by a word.
- golergka 8y ago
  That's a good point, but there's a crucial difference you're not considering. In US, programs like MK Ultra were actually trying to be secret and had a severe public outlash as they were published. Now, these programs are widespread knowledge and you won't find a reasonable US person who would defend them. In USSR, on the other hand, state-backed violence was only "save face" secret that everybody was more or less aware of. Solzhenitsyn's revelations made a much bigger splash outside of the USSR than within exactly because he didn't reveal anything most of the population wasn't already aware of - but the people themselves didn't mind that much. Even today, most Russians would say that state-sponsored violence of USSR, which affected tens of millions of people, was a good thing, and leaders who perpetrated it are still viewed favorably.
  - watwut 8y ago
    > he didn't reveal anything most of the population wasn't already aware of - but the people themselves didn't mind that much The scope of purges was such that it was impossible not to know. When the book went out, Soviet union was much safer place to live in, simply because main purge already ended. After communism fell, he was also not only one to write about these things or talk about them, bookstores were full of memoirs. Current support for those things has a lot to do with both contemporary politics and propaganda and with the way young democracy was mishandled.
  - ItsMe000001 8y ago
    Are you out of your f...ing mind??? What distortions of mind are necessary - on a Trump-like level - to try to twist it until the US looks good no matter what shit you guys do? You will surely come up with some good justifications for anything as long as it's done by "your" country. From all its many many wars and killings to internal things like asset forfeiture or biased sentencing of the poor to for-profit prisons. Yes, if you got the money and don't belong to the wrong group you can live quite nicely in the US of A.
- adventured 8y ago
  You're using a prevalent concept - near total state control over persons in the former Soviet Union - and contrasting it with examples that were rare. That's why your retort is invalid. It's fundamentally why people aren't shocked at what the USSR did to people during its existence, and are shocked when they find out about some of the US military's experiments, such as the army's test of airborne dispersion of germs in St. Louis and other cities: https://www.livescience.com/23795-large-area-coverage-dangers.html https://www.livescience.com/23795-large-area-coverage-danger...
ItsMe000001 8y ago
> in Soviet style countries. Conveniently leaving out the experiments performed by the US military, for example, in the sixties. I chose the US because that's the most prominent anti-pole to the USSR, not because they did anything unique that no other country has done or would do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentatio.... I don't like whataboutism as much as the next guy, but if you put on blinders to only see what fits your world view I think it's okay to put things into perspective. Humans don't always care about other humans, that was, is and will be true and has nothing to do with "communism" or whatever name you happen to despise the most.