9 ms·

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's

by Latty 8y ago

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning - primary school isn't pointless even though most people master it. This feels like it links back to the same problem as everything else - as time goes on automation removes less skilled jobs, and more and more people will need to do more skilled jobs. This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment - at that point (and arguably before), asking people to pay for education they need to be a functional member of society seems inherently broken. Of course, the other option is just to accept that maybe in the future not everyone needs to work, or certainly not everyone needs to work a full time job. Unfortunately for America, the idea of anyone not working as a "freeloader" is so heavily ingrained into the public consciousness, it seems likely people will just be left to suffer (even if they are "freeloading" off the labour of machines). Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if when we reach that point, people who can't do that level of work are defined as disabled in some way to "justify" it. Or, worse, arbitrary jobs that aren't needed, but are created just to employ them.

andai 8y ago
The biggest obstacles to UBI aren't economic, they're cultural. I'm currently working in manual labor as I brush up on front end, and it's devastating to me that my current job and almost all jobs available to me can and will be automated. What happens then, with the majority of people who aren't suited for STEM?
- hycaria 8y ago
  You don't need a degree to care for elders or run errands for them.
- Applejinx 8y ago
  Why do you think STEM can't be automated?
  - 3rdAccount 8y ago
    Do you think AI will think by itself, invent new things, and write software in the next 50 years? I don't.
    - undersuit 8y ago
      Writing software seems less intimidating than the millions of artists brute forcing for thousands of years the problem space of what humanity considers Art. I'm just slightly worried that STEM's problems are too close to their base of physics and math to be that hard for a computer compared to the layers of abstraction that go into the rest of our works.
      - 3rdAccount 8y ago
        A computer currently doesn't think though as there is no existing general AI. The question becomes what is easier to automate using standard techniques? Groundbreaking discoveries probably won't be automated until you have a general AI. A neural network isn't going to come up with warp drive. Computers already can make really good art.
franciscop 8y ago
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about zero-sum (which should be similar everywhere), I'm talking about Universities becoming easier in USA much faster than in Europe. Example: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/same-performance-better-grades/384447/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/same-p...
- mac01021 8y ago
  How do European professors and universities avoid grade inflation? Are their incentives very different?
  - franciscop 8y ago
    That is quite more internal so I can answer only for Spain and Industrial Engineering: yes. Professors' main incentive seem to be to make sure that those who pass are those who know what they are talking about. The main reason is that if a student screws up, people die. A more political reason is because University prestige depends partly on the knowledge of the graduading students. So if someone said they studied in X and they had no idea what they were talking about it'd give quite a bad image for the university. It's not rare to see some students crying at the exam review but it mostly doesn't work.
    - dasv 8y ago
      Just to clarify, Industrial Engineering in Spain is a generalist engineering degree (mechanics/electricity and electronics/fluid mechanics/materials/etc). What the rest of the world calls "industrial engineering" is called "organization engineering" here. The main difference between grades in Spanish engineering schools and the rest of Europe seems to be that the grade curve is heavily compressed between 4/10 and 6/10 (passing grade is 5/10). The amount of study needed to reach a passing grade would amount to an A elsewhere. As long as 25% (IIRC) of the students pass there are no consequences for the department. If less people pass, they just award a 5.0 to everyone from a certain grade up, they don't do curves. It is not unusual for people to retake a class for three or four years in a row. There is not much guidance from professors either, no homework or extra assignments. There is just one or two midterms and a final exam, and if you're lucky there will be official course materials to study from but that is not a requirement. Most exchange students have a pretty bad time here, but on the other hand Spanish students abroad usually ace their exams with half of the work they are used to.
gaius 8y ago
This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment There will be plumbers and hairdressers long after the last lawyer or accountant has been replaced by AI. There is neither the demand for, nor do the prerequisites exist in the general population for, Tony Bliar's target of 50% of school leavers to go to university and achieve a degree comparable to those of even 20 years ago.
gaius 8y ago
Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning Yes and no. If it's a political goal that x% of the population must be awarded a degree, then the standards will need to be adjusted, and below a certain point, the value of the learning goes away as well.
- candiodari 8y ago
  Bingo. The only way to have "equality" is by making the standards far below what even an average student is capable of.
brozaman 8y ago
> This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment You're not too far from Spain's current situation. We have some lower qualification titles that last two years and are almost free to get that teach a trade, there are courses to become an electrician, mechanic, plumber, hairdresser, cook, etc. There is even one to become a systems administrator and one to become a programmer.
chx 8y ago
> This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment My father had been the safety laboratory lead at a Hungarian pharmeutical company from 1989 till his retirement about ten years ago (could be a little less). What he told me about has stuck with me: when he started, he could hire people from vocational high schools but by the end, everything they used became so complex he could only hire people with university degrees.
- pnutjam 8y ago
  If that is the case, I think revamping the high school requirements would be a better investment.
  - jopsen 8y ago
    The problem is that today's generations are joining companies that are heavily specialized. Unlike previous generations which could learn while the company learned. There are some vocational coding schools, but these won't prepare you to do real computer science. There are some vocational carpentry schools with increased focus on AutoCad and other analytical skills. But these won't equipt you to design bridges..
    - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
      Sure, but there's no such thing as a combined education in plant physiology, embedded firmware development, and machine learning, so maybe employers should just get off their high horse and train people. (This is a reference to several jobs posted at MIT and in other Cambridge, MA workplaces on various occasions.)
      - Immortalin 8y ago
        Applied ML on IoT-controlled Psychedelic plant husbandry?
        8y ago
madengr 8y ago
Disability claims in the USA have soared over the last 10 years, so it’s already happening.
rsync 8y ago
"Or, worse, arbitrary jobs that aren't needed, but are created just to employ them." ... "You ask for a miracle ? I give you the (T S A) ..."[1] [1] Die Hard
mnm1 8y ago
I don't think we're at the point where degrees are required for everything, but we are at the point where they are required for almost all decent jobs that lead to decent lifestyles, especially in the US. We've been at this point for decades. This is the major point of contention in the US and around the world. In the US specifically, Americans want a good life without working for the education it requires. Most other cultures readily see that this is impossible today. That's why you get so many immigrants focusing on education and so many Americans focusing, I kid you not, on anti intellectualism and hate for learning. These ideas then transform into hate for immigrants because "they're taking our jobs" when in reality, the Americans claiming that don't have the mental capacity to even reach such a conclusion because they have trouble even graduating from our high schools, high schools that are some of the most dumbed down on earth. Talk about entitlement. Yes, this was possible in America in the sixties and seventies, but the world has changed and Americans haven't kept up. I'm certain this situation is playing itself out in plenty of other places in the world, but it's especially egregious here because of our high tech economy. I see this disparity between the educated and non educated, between urban and rural people as the core of much domestic and international conflict in the world this past a hundred years or so, a conflict that seems to have no easy solutions or simple answers.
- candiodari 8y ago
  > Most other cultures readily see that this is impossible today. Nope. All cultures I've seen so far have this. It's just that immigrants stuck between a rock and a hard place put in the effort to do better, and threaten their kids into doing the same. Or at least, they do so more often than other groups. Needless to say, the natives try to sabotage this. This is also the same everywhere. In Europe, in Asia, in America. It's worse where there is more state control (ie. it's pretty bad in the Netherlands for example).
gluelogic 8y ago
> primary school isn't pointless even though most people master it. That's because the knowledge taught in primary school is way more essential to day-to-day life. If people don't know those skills then our society fails.

by Latty 8y ago

andai 8y ago

The biggest obstacles to UBI aren't economic, they're cultural. I'm currently working in manual labor as I brush up on front end, and it's devastating to me that my current job and almost all jobs available to me can and will be automated. What happens then, with the majority of people who aren't suited for STEM?

hycaria 8y ago
You don't need a degree to care for elders or run errands for them.
Applejinx 8y ago
Why do you think STEM can't be automated?
- 3rdAccount 8y ago
  Do you think AI will think by itself, invent new things, and write software in the next 50 years? I don't.
  - undersuit 8y ago
    Writing software seems less intimidating than the millions of artists brute forcing for thousands of years the problem space of what humanity considers Art. I'm just slightly worried that STEM's problems are too close to their base of physics and math to be that hard for a computer compared to the layers of abstraction that go into the rest of our works.
    - 3rdAccount 8y ago
      A computer currently doesn't think though as there is no existing general AI. The question becomes what is easier to automate using standard techniques? Groundbreaking discoveries probably won't be automated until you have a general AI. A neural network isn't going to come up with warp drive. Computers already can make really good art.

franciscop 8y ago

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about zero-sum (which should be similar everywhere), I'm talking about Universities becoming easier in USA much faster than in Europe. Example: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/same-performance-better-grades/384447/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/same-p...

mac01021 8y ago
How do European professors and universities avoid grade inflation? Are their incentives very different?
- franciscop 8y ago
  That is quite more internal so I can answer only for Spain and Industrial Engineering: yes. Professors' main incentive seem to be to make sure that those who pass are those who know what they are talking about. The main reason is that if a student screws up, people die. A more political reason is because University prestige depends partly on the knowledge of the graduading students. So if someone said they studied in X and they had no idea what they were talking about it'd give quite a bad image for the university. It's not rare to see some students crying at the exam review but it mostly doesn't work.
  - dasv 8y ago
    Just to clarify, Industrial Engineering in Spain is a generalist engineering degree (mechanics/electricity and electronics/fluid mechanics/materials/etc). What the rest of the world calls "industrial engineering" is called "organization engineering" here. The main difference between grades in Spanish engineering schools and the rest of Europe seems to be that the grade curve is heavily compressed between 4/10 and 6/10 (passing grade is 5/10). The amount of study needed to reach a passing grade would amount to an A elsewhere. As long as 25% (IIRC) of the students pass there are no consequences for the department. If less people pass, they just award a 5.0 to everyone from a certain grade up, they don't do curves. It is not unusual for people to retake a class for three or four years in a row. There is not much guidance from professors either, no homework or extra assignments. There is just one or two midterms and a final exam, and if you're lucky there will be official course materials to study from but that is not a requirement. Most exchange students have a pretty bad time here, but on the other hand Spanish students abroad usually ace their exams with half of the work they are used to.

gaius 8y ago

This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment There will be plumbers and hairdressers long after the last lawyer or accountant has been replaced by AI. There is neither the demand for, nor do the prerequisites exist in the general population for, Tony Bliar's target of 50% of school leavers to go to university and achieve a degree comparable to those of even 20 years ago.

gaius 8y ago

Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning Yes and no. If it's a political goal that x% of the population must be awarded a degree, then the standards will need to be adjusted, and below a certain point, the value of the learning goes away as well.

candiodari 8y ago
Bingo. The only way to have "equality" is by making the standards far below what even an average student is capable of.

brozaman 8y ago

> This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment You're not too far from Spain's current situation. We have some lower qualification titles that last two years and are almost free to get that teach a trade, there are courses to become an electrician, mechanic, plumber, hairdresser, cook, etc. There is even one to become a systems administrator and one to become a programmer.

chx 8y ago

> This means that at some point, university levels of education will probably become necessary for any employment My father had been the safety laboratory lead at a Hungarian pharmeutical company from 1989 till his retirement about ten years ago (could be a little less). What he told me about has stuck with me: when he started, he could hire people from vocational high schools but by the end, everything they used became so complex he could only hire people with university degrees.

pnutjam 8y ago
If that is the case, I think revamping the high school requirements would be a better investment.
- jopsen 8y ago
  The problem is that today's generations are joining companies that are heavily specialized. Unlike previous generations which could learn while the company learned. There are some vocational coding schools, but these won't prepare you to do real computer science. There are some vocational carpentry schools with increased focus on AutoCad and other analytical skills. But these won't equipt you to design bridges..
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    Sure, but there's no such thing as a combined education in plant physiology, embedded firmware development, and machine learning, so maybe employers should just get off their high horse and train people. (This is a reference to several jobs posted at MIT and in other Cambridge, MA workplaces on various occasions.)
    - Immortalin 8y ago
      Applied ML on IoT-controlled Psychedelic plant husbandry?
      - 8y ago

madengr 8y ago

Disability claims in the USA have soared over the last 10 years, so it’s already happening.

rsync 8y ago

"Or, worse, arbitrary jobs that aren't needed, but are created just to employ them." ... "You ask for a miracle ? I give you the (T S A) ..."[1] [1] Die Hard

mnm1 8y ago

I don't think we're at the point where degrees are required for everything, but we are at the point where they are required for almost all decent jobs that lead to decent lifestyles, especially in the US. We've been at this point for decades. This is the major point of contention in the US and around the world. In the US specifically, Americans want a good life without working for the education it requires. Most other cultures readily see that this is impossible today. That's why you get so many immigrants focusing on education and so many Americans focusing, I kid you not, on anti intellectualism and hate for learning. These ideas then transform into hate for immigrants because "they're taking our jobs" when in reality, the Americans claiming that don't have the mental capacity to even reach such a conclusion because they have trouble even graduating from our high schools, high schools that are some of the most dumbed down on earth. Talk about entitlement. Yes, this was possible in America in the sixties and seventies, but the world has changed and Americans haven't kept up. I'm certain this situation is playing itself out in plenty of other places in the world, but it's especially egregious here because of our high tech economy. I see this disparity between the educated and non educated, between urban and rural people as the core of much domestic and international conflict in the world this past a hundred years or so, a conflict that seems to have no easy solutions or simple answers.

candiodari 8y ago
> Most other cultures readily see that this is impossible today. Nope. All cultures I've seen so far have this. It's just that immigrants stuck between a rock and a hard place put in the effort to do better, and threaten their kids into doing the same. Or at least, they do so more often than other groups. Needless to say, the natives try to sabotage this. This is also the same everywhere. In Europe, in Asia, in America. It's worse where there is more state control (ie. it's pretty bad in the Netherlands for example).

gluelogic 8y ago

> primary school isn't pointless even though most people master it. That's because the knowledge taught in primary school is way more essential to day-to-day life. If people don't know those skills then our society fails.