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I'm not sure we can do much to understand the role of authority without understanding the role of conditioning in what makes people act. For instance, why are

I'm not sure we can do much to understand the role of authority without understanding the role of conditioning in what makes people act. For instance, why are most schools so regimented and rule-rich? For efficiency, certainly, but not all school rules increased efficiency. I would guess some of the rules exist to reinforce obedience to the other rules.

specialist 8y ago
Filed under "believe, but cannot prove": Whereas I thought anxiety (or lack of) was first order predictor someone's behavior (eg conservative vs liberal), I now think the root is someone's fear response. Reformulated: fear -> anxiety -> (submission to) authority
forapurpose 8y ago
> I would guess some of the rules exist to reinforce obedience to the other rules. If it existed, it seems like there would be evidence of this, in the literatures of educational research, training, and school management. I doubt there is conspiracy of school principals. Schools are bureaucracies, and like every bureaucracy they have rules, often rules that seem nonsensical to people who haven't had to manage one. People feel like companies and other organizations are overly regimented too.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  I don't think that's true. For one, there are many publications about strict education and until relatively recently, it was the leading school of thought; we have movies featuring them, even praising them (Harry Potter for example - that was an example of a school lead as a benevolent dictatorship - that of course turned out bad later in the series). For two, people mostly don't read books about parenting but then they're parenting their kids somehow - how? Well, with whatever they picked up from their parents, TV, fiction books... Isn't it possible that it might be the same with teaching? I have some experience with working in education. Most of my former colleagues almost never think about the way they teach; you ask them why did they punish a student for disobedience (aka "he drank water even though I told him not to") and they say "because that's how it's done", you asked them why are they explaining something in that way and they don't know, they just do.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  The problem is if there's a survival benefit to becoming rigidly obedient, insulating this information would be valuable. Think about pyramid schemes.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Every single government primary and secondary education system on Earth is a direct descendant of the Prussian one. Non-existent to very limited choice of how one spends ones time, constant ranking and grading to inure people to dominance behaviours that do not come naturally, and all in groups that are age normed rather than competence or ability normed. School doesn’t have a singular purpose because there’s no one out there who designed it but learning definitely isn’t in the top five things it does. The people who did design the progenitor of modern school systems designed it to get people to sit down, shut up and do as they were told, and to love the government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system http://www.overcomingbias.com/2016/04/school-is-to-submit.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2016/04/school-is-to-submit.ht...
AmericanChopper 8y ago
I think that’s a pretty cynical view. You could just as easily say it’s about discipline. To be successful in pretty much anything requires discipline and some level of regimented behaviour.
- projektir 8y ago
  Why is the cynical view not appropriate? I'm much more suspicious of the idea that something was implemented with everyone's best interests in mind if there isn't strong evidence pointing there. > To be successful in pretty much anything requires discipline and some level of regimented behaviour. There's no evidence to confirm this statement, even though it may sound like common sense. And this post reads odd. The current school model is very old. If schools exist to instill discipline, and discipline is required for success, I'd expect everyone to be super successful right now.
  - AmericanChopper 8y ago
    There is overwhelming evidence to confirm that statement. Conscientiousness is the greatest predictor of lifetime success besides intelligence, and discipline is a core element of consciousness. You’re postulating that the entire education system is conspiring together to teach children a sense of self-discipline as part of some oppressive conditioning scheme. Any form of achievement in life requires discipline. It’s completely irrational to suggest otherwise.
    - jokoon 8y ago
      What kind of evidence? How do you define success? Society and civilization are built around discipline and order, but it doesn't mean you require those qualities to have success. The role of school is to teach people to fit into a civilized world. It is not oppressive, it's not always conditioning, but it's a mean to give people a chance to live a comfortable life inside the frame of civilization. Success is a different thing.
      - AmericanChopper 8y ago

specialist 8y ago

Filed under "believe, but cannot prove": Whereas I thought anxiety (or lack of) was first order predictor someone's behavior (eg conservative vs liberal), I now think the root is someone's fear response. Reformulated: fear -> anxiety -> (submission to) authority

forapurpose 8y ago

> I would guess some of the rules exist to reinforce obedience to the other rules. If it existed, it seems like there would be evidence of this, in the literatures of educational research, training, and school management. I doubt there is conspiracy of school principals. Schools are bureaucracies, and like every bureaucracy they have rules, often rules that seem nonsensical to people who haven't had to manage one. People feel like companies and other organizations are overly regimented too.

TomMarius 8y ago
I don't think that's true. For one, there are many publications about strict education and until relatively recently, it was the leading school of thought; we have movies featuring them, even praising them (Harry Potter for example - that was an example of a school lead as a benevolent dictatorship - that of course turned out bad later in the series). For two, people mostly don't read books about parenting but then they're parenting their kids somehow - how? Well, with whatever they picked up from their parents, TV, fiction books... Isn't it possible that it might be the same with teaching? I have some experience with working in education. Most of my former colleagues almost never think about the way they teach; you ask them why did they punish a student for disobedience (aka "he drank water even though I told him not to") and they say "because that's how it's done", you asked them why are they explaining something in that way and they don't know, they just do.
s-shellfish 8y ago
The problem is if there's a survival benefit to becoming rigidly obedient, insulating this information would be valuable. Think about pyramid schemes.
barry-cotter 8y ago
Every single government primary and secondary education system on Earth is a direct descendant of the Prussian one. Non-existent to very limited choice of how one spends ones time, constant ranking and grading to inure people to dominance behaviours that do not come naturally, and all in groups that are age normed rather than competence or ability normed. School doesn’t have a singular purpose because there’s no one out there who designed it but learning definitely isn’t in the top five things it does. The people who did design the progenitor of modern school systems designed it to get people to sit down, shut up and do as they were told, and to love the government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system http://www.overcomingbias.com/2016/04/school-is-to-submit.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2016/04/school-is-to-submit.ht...

AmericanChopper 8y ago

I think that’s a pretty cynical view. You could just as easily say it’s about discipline. To be successful in pretty much anything requires discipline and some level of regimented behaviour.

projektir 8y ago
Why is the cynical view not appropriate? I'm much more suspicious of the idea that something was implemented with everyone's best interests in mind if there isn't strong evidence pointing there. > To be successful in pretty much anything requires discipline and some level of regimented behaviour. There's no evidence to confirm this statement, even though it may sound like common sense. And this post reads odd. The current school model is very old. If schools exist to instill discipline, and discipline is required for success, I'd expect everyone to be super successful right now.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  There is overwhelming evidence to confirm that statement. Conscientiousness is the greatest predictor of lifetime success besides intelligence, and discipline is a core element of consciousness. You’re postulating that the entire education system is conspiring together to teach children a sense of self-discipline as part of some oppressive conditioning scheme. Any form of achievement in life requires discipline. It’s completely irrational to suggest otherwise.
  - jokoon 8y ago
    What kind of evidence? How do you define success? Society and civilization are built around discipline and order, but it doesn't mean you require those qualities to have success. The role of school is to teach people to fit into a civilized world. It is not oppressive, it's not always conditioning, but it's a mean to give people a chance to live a comfortable life inside the frame of civilization. Success is a different thing.
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago