4 ms·

This was longitudinal study where people who chose to go to therapy were compared to those who didn't chose to go, not a randomized experiment with a control gr

This was longitudinal study where people who chose to go to therapy were compared to those who didn't chose to go, not a randomized experiment with a control group. Here's a link that gets you a pdf, I recommend reading the general discussion. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Therapy%20experience%20in%20naturalistic%20observational%20studies%20is%20associated%20with%20negative%20changes%20in%20personality&btnG=Search&as_sdt=800000000001&as_sdtp=on https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Therapy%20experience%20...

tunesmith 8y ago
People who choose to go to therapy probably tend to generally feel more negative feelings (and express them) than people that don't. Is this study anything more than pointing out that obvious correlation? I don't see how they can demonstrate causation without randomizing with a control group.
- msoad 8y ago
  Yup, people who mix correlation with causation will end up dead.
- woodandsteel 8y ago
  My understanding is that the study looked at change over time, so it's not as badly designed a study as a simple correlation, though it is still not ideal.
- lsiebert 8y ago
  Well, I mean an obvious correlation isn't necessarily real or proven until you measure it, so this isn't nothing, but it's not what I think people saw when the read the title, which was evidence that therapy itself lead to worse outcomes.
api 8y ago
Also: did therapy cause these apparently increases in negative characteristics or unmask them? It's possible that after therapy people were less in denial about their actual feelings. Overall it seems like a fairly shallow study, though it does raise questions.
entwife 8y ago
Common sense would say young adults with negative personality are more likely to start therapy. Logic says correlation does not equal causation. The authors argument about their renegade research/analysis, is not persuasive as to why correlation equals causation within the scope of their longitudinal analysis.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  I agree that correlation does not equal causation, but I wonder if that, reframed, is actually a reason why therapy can be harmful. Therapy tends to treat negative thoughts as things caused by events and/or other thoughts, and this itself may be a pernicious way of mistaking correlation for causation. I think a fair amount has been written about how harmful therapy is when applied to people with serious mental illnesses, because it encourages people to dwell on negative thoughts and come up with spurious and unhelpful reasoning about causality. But if it doesn't work in the most severe circumstances, why should we remain committed to the belief that it works in less severe ones?
  - petra 8y ago
    True. Plus medication was one of the treatments under "therapy" in this study - and there's serious doubt whether medication(in general) is helping or harming.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    A lot of beliefs are neither true nor false, but rather "self-fulfilling". If you believe that you lack the ability to succeed professionally, you aren't going to put in the effort to try, which means you won't succeed. If you believe you're fundamentally unlovable, you will shy away from trying to connect with other people, because it just means you'll be rejected and hurt anyways. If you believe everyone is out to get you, you'll behave in a self-interested and paranoid way, which will scare off anyone who just wants to help so that everyone remaining really is out to get you. If you believe therapy is completely unhelpful, you won't listen to anything the therapist says and so it will be unhelpful. The role of therapy is usually to break these "causality loops" by first introducing the idea that there is another possible way of interpreting these perceptions, and secondly asking the patient "Well, what kind of life do you want to have, and how can you get there?" A good therapist doesn't encourage people to dwell on negative perceptions; rather, they should be encouraging you to acknowledge the thought, and then also come up with other possible framings, explore what you really want, and act on that. Causality vs. correlation is somewhat immaterial: the point is that your cognition is both a reflection of the world as it is and a driver for how you would like it to be, and so it functions as a feedback loop. If you're getting good results in your life it's a good feedback loop, but if something is wrong and you haven't been able to fix it, it can be helpful to have a trusted outsider who can point out your unspoken assumptions.

tunesmith 8y ago

People who choose to go to therapy probably tend to generally feel more negative feelings (and express them) than people that don't. Is this study anything more than pointing out that obvious correlation? I don't see how they can demonstrate causation without randomizing with a control group.

msoad 8y ago
Yup, people who mix correlation with causation will end up dead.
woodandsteel 8y ago
My understanding is that the study looked at change over time, so it's not as badly designed a study as a simple correlation, though it is still not ideal.
lsiebert 8y ago
Well, I mean an obvious correlation isn't necessarily real or proven until you measure it, so this isn't nothing, but it's not what I think people saw when the read the title, which was evidence that therapy itself lead to worse outcomes.

api 8y ago

Also: did therapy cause these apparently increases in negative characteristics or unmask them? It's possible that after therapy people were less in denial about their actual feelings. Overall it seems like a fairly shallow study, though it does raise questions.

entwife 8y ago

Common sense would say young adults with negative personality are more likely to start therapy. Logic says correlation does not equal causation. The authors argument about their renegade research/analysis, is not persuasive as to why correlation equals causation within the scope of their longitudinal analysis.

perl4ever 8y ago
I agree that correlation does not equal causation, but I wonder if that, reframed, is actually a reason why therapy can be harmful. Therapy tends to treat negative thoughts as things caused by events and/or other thoughts, and this itself may be a pernicious way of mistaking correlation for causation. I think a fair amount has been written about how harmful therapy is when applied to people with serious mental illnesses, because it encourages people to dwell on negative thoughts and come up with spurious and unhelpful reasoning about causality. But if it doesn't work in the most severe circumstances, why should we remain committed to the belief that it works in less severe ones?
- petra 8y ago
  True. Plus medication was one of the treatments under "therapy" in this study - and there's serious doubt whether medication(in general) is helping or harming.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  A lot of beliefs are neither true nor false, but rather "self-fulfilling". If you believe that you lack the ability to succeed professionally, you aren't going to put in the effort to try, which means you won't succeed. If you believe you're fundamentally unlovable, you will shy away from trying to connect with other people, because it just means you'll be rejected and hurt anyways. If you believe everyone is out to get you, you'll behave in a self-interested and paranoid way, which will scare off anyone who just wants to help so that everyone remaining really is out to get you. If you believe therapy is completely unhelpful, you won't listen to anything the therapist says and so it will be unhelpful. The role of therapy is usually to break these "causality loops" by first introducing the idea that there is another possible way of interpreting these perceptions, and secondly asking the patient "Well, what kind of life do you want to have, and how can you get there?" A good therapist doesn't encourage people to dwell on negative perceptions; rather, they should be encouraging you to acknowledge the thought, and then also come up with other possible framings, explore what you really want, and act on that. Causality vs. correlation is somewhat immaterial: the point is that your cognition is both a reflection of the world as it is and a driver for how you would like it to be, and so it functions as a feedback loop. If you're getting good results in your life it's a good feedback loop, but if something is wrong and you haven't been able to fix it, it can be helpful to have a trusted outsider who can point out your unspoken assumptions.