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I have a strong skepticism towards aged spirits of any kind due to the traditionalist nature of their production, as well as due to the inherent biases involved

I have a strong skepticism towards aged spirits of any kind due to the traditionalist nature of their production, as well as due to the inherent biases involved in anything food or drink (e.g. wine tasting [1]). Aging is solely a factor of temperature, pressure, and time. Rum aged in the Bahamas ages quicker (by years) than that aged in cooler climates. Likewise, spirits aged at, say, 0C will age very slow, if at all. It's like making tea, where you can steep in cold water, but hot water expedites the process significantly. So why don't any of these spirit producers use a heated pressure chamber with some wood thrown in to "age" their spirits in hours instead of years? The answer is because many countries impose regulatory mandates that for X spirit to be labeled as such, it must be aged a minimum Y time. This minimum can be years for some spirits. Thus producers are forced to age traditionally regardless of the efficiency of their process. And you can't sell your pressure-aged spirit as "120 Years" despite the chemical processes involved being identical to traditional aging. Consumers might also perceive such process as of lesser quality. It's a sham, and the value of supposed quality spirits is artificially inflated by their arbitrary and involved production process, as well as by consumer bias. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_wine_tasting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_wine_tasting

massaman_yams 8y ago
Hibiki is available without an age statement. It's quite popular despite this.
kasey_junk 8y ago
Bufalo Trace runs a ton of experimental runs of their Whiskey where they change all manner of variables. You can pretty routinely find vertical or horizontal tastings of their stuff to see what factors matter most to you. The one I've found that seems to have the most flavor changes for the least amount of 'bad outcomes' is smaller casks. But even that you can fairly easily pick out once you've started finding your favorite flavor profiles. Other distillers do the opposite, Makers Mark for instance is famous for moving casks all over their rick houses to account for the differences in heat/pressure/etc to get a more consistent flavor. Lots of micro distillers are using 'modern' processes to get different flavors out of their production. Thats a long way of saying, I disagree with you about it being rare for companies to mess with their production processes. Its quite common and the stigma against it is going away, not being reinforced.
- paavoova 8y ago
  I don't doubt that many producers aim to improve their process and flavor profile and aim to modernize. But how can they when something like Scotch must be aged 3 years in wood to be sold as such? That is, you can replicate the traditional Scotch aging process in a pressure chamber in a matter of days, and it tastes similar, and the chemical profile is similar, but you cannot sell it as Scotch unless you stick it in a wooden barrel for years. It's arbitrary and ridiculous. But the article linked in the OP describes traditionalism. Nothing is stopping these Japanese distillers from innovating and expediting the aging process. So really, those low-stocks are artificially inflated in value. Here is an interesting article [1]: We put the distillate into a pressure capable stainless steel tank and then we cut up the wood from the barrel into measured segments. We control for size and shape and surface area and moisture content and weight. Once Cleveland’s spirit is in the tank, the pressure is ratcheted up and then plunged down to a near vacuum. Supposedly, the process is similar to what happens when the temperature fluctuates in a rickhouse. Although “essentially, we’re squeezing that wood much like a sponge,” Lix says. “We pull a tremendous amount of flavor in a short time.” “By the traditionalists, we’re considered heretics and what we’re doing is sacrilege,” Lix continues. “We’ve been called the number one most hated bourbon distillery among old-school whiskey drinkers.” Not only do these modern processes face regulatory restrictions in the market, they face backlash from the consumers themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if in a blind tasting, such pressure-aged spirits would fare favorably, but not if their brand and process was known. There is too much biased involved for me to appreciate any part of this industry and it as a hobby. [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/07/the-scientific-arms-race-to-age-our-whiskey/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/07/the-scientific-arms-...
  - tptacek 8y ago
    The trend in Scotch is strongly towards no-age-statement (NAS) expressions. If they could reproduce aging in an Oloroso butt using pressure treatment, Diageo would already be doing it. Scotch tends to be aged for at least 10 years; the economics are such that even if they could just mix in pressure-aged distillate to cut down the aggregate ratio of aging years/liters, they'd be doing that, and still relating an "average age" over 10 years (which is roughly what they claim for NAS single-malt now). But they do not. They don't even do it for blends, where the distillates aren't even ostensibly traceable. Is it possible that some technological approach will allow for radically accelerated aging of Scotch? I sure hope so! Is your subtext --- that all Scotch is basically the same product regardless of how it's aged simply because someone has managed to extract phenylated esters from chunks of wood --- valid? No, it obviously is not.
tptacek 8y ago
This is really silly. American whiskey producers already experiment with accelerated aging. But the whiskey we're talking about in this article --- high priced Japanese single-malt, and single-malt in general --- is aged in particularly selected casks. You can't use a heated pressure chamber to change a bourbon barrel into an oloroso sherry cask.
- paavoova 8y ago
  The process to produce the casks could be accelerated in the same pressure-aging process on wood pieces, which can then be used in place of the casks. And as the surface area of wood pieces is far larger than that of a barrel, and since pressure causes full penetration of the wood, it requires far less wood volume to produce the same chemical interactions and leaching. It may therefore be economical to buy the used casks and cut them up for use in the pressure-aging process. Anything to get away from being reliant on aged wooden barrels to produce aged whiskey at a huge markup simply due to the time required for the archaic process. That's what is silly.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    There's more than wood in these casks. Aging in a sherry butt extracts sherry flavors, which are unmistakeable --- you don't need to be a whiskey nerd to notice them any more than you need to be a beer nerd to notice the difference between an APA and a porter. And sherry butts get used in cycles for multiple batches of scotch.

massaman_yams 8y ago

Hibiki is available without an age statement. It's quite popular despite this.

kasey_junk 8y ago

Bufalo Trace runs a ton of experimental runs of their Whiskey where they change all manner of variables. You can pretty routinely find vertical or horizontal tastings of their stuff to see what factors matter most to you. The one I've found that seems to have the most flavor changes for the least amount of 'bad outcomes' is smaller casks. But even that you can fairly easily pick out once you've started finding your favorite flavor profiles. Other distillers do the opposite, Makers Mark for instance is famous for moving casks all over their rick houses to account for the differences in heat/pressure/etc to get a more consistent flavor. Lots of micro distillers are using 'modern' processes to get different flavors out of their production. Thats a long way of saying, I disagree with you about it being rare for companies to mess with their production processes. Its quite common and the stigma against it is going away, not being reinforced.

paavoova 8y ago
I don't doubt that many producers aim to improve their process and flavor profile and aim to modernize. But how can they when something like Scotch must be aged 3 years in wood to be sold as such? That is, you can replicate the traditional Scotch aging process in a pressure chamber in a matter of days, and it tastes similar, and the chemical profile is similar, but you cannot sell it as Scotch unless you stick it in a wooden barrel for years. It's arbitrary and ridiculous. But the article linked in the OP describes traditionalism. Nothing is stopping these Japanese distillers from innovating and expediting the aging process. So really, those low-stocks are artificially inflated in value. Here is an interesting article [1]: We put the distillate into a pressure capable stainless steel tank and then we cut up the wood from the barrel into measured segments. We control for size and shape and surface area and moisture content and weight. Once Cleveland’s spirit is in the tank, the pressure is ratcheted up and then plunged down to a near vacuum. Supposedly, the process is similar to what happens when the temperature fluctuates in a rickhouse. Although “essentially, we’re squeezing that wood much like a sponge,” Lix says. “We pull a tremendous amount of flavor in a short time.” “By the traditionalists, we’re considered heretics and what we’re doing is sacrilege,” Lix continues. “We’ve been called the number one most hated bourbon distillery among old-school whiskey drinkers.” Not only do these modern processes face regulatory restrictions in the market, they face backlash from the consumers themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if in a blind tasting, such pressure-aged spirits would fare favorably, but not if their brand and process was known. There is too much biased involved for me to appreciate any part of this industry and it as a hobby. [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/07/the-scientific-arms-race-to-age-our-whiskey/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/07/the-scientific-arms-...
- tptacek 8y ago
  The trend in Scotch is strongly towards no-age-statement (NAS) expressions. If they could reproduce aging in an Oloroso butt using pressure treatment, Diageo would already be doing it. Scotch tends to be aged for at least 10 years; the economics are such that even if they could just mix in pressure-aged distillate to cut down the aggregate ratio of aging years/liters, they'd be doing that, and still relating an "average age" over 10 years (which is roughly what they claim for NAS single-malt now). But they do not. They don't even do it for blends, where the distillates aren't even ostensibly traceable. Is it possible that some technological approach will allow for radically accelerated aging of Scotch? I sure hope so! Is your subtext --- that all Scotch is basically the same product regardless of how it's aged simply because someone has managed to extract phenylated esters from chunks of wood --- valid? No, it obviously is not.

tptacek 8y ago

This is really silly. American whiskey producers already experiment with accelerated aging. But the whiskey we're talking about in this article --- high priced Japanese single-malt, and single-malt in general --- is aged in particularly selected casks. You can't use a heated pressure chamber to change a bourbon barrel into an oloroso sherry cask.

paavoova 8y ago
The process to produce the casks could be accelerated in the same pressure-aging process on wood pieces, which can then be used in place of the casks. And as the surface area of wood pieces is far larger than that of a barrel, and since pressure causes full penetration of the wood, it requires far less wood volume to produce the same chemical interactions and leaching. It may therefore be economical to buy the used casks and cut them up for use in the pressure-aging process. Anything to get away from being reliant on aged wooden barrels to produce aged whiskey at a huge markup simply due to the time required for the archaic process. That's what is silly.
- tptacek 8y ago
  There's more than wood in these casks. Aging in a sherry butt extracts sherry flavors, which are unmistakeable --- you don't need to be a whiskey nerd to notice them any more than you need to be a beer nerd to notice the difference between an APA and a porter. And sherry butts get used in cycles for multiple batches of scotch.