5 ms·

It's not sophistication and intelligence. It's the cost of living.

by adnam 16y ago

bpodgursky 16y ago
I don't think it's that simple. Plenty of people living in poverty manage to have quite large families. I think instead it's the desire to have children only if you can have them and still live a the level of comfort you desire. It used to be, that people had kids simply because it was the default, and everyone did. But now that society has advanced to the point that people are able to make different decisions, it seems like often the choice is, simply to not have them. That's all I mean by sophistication--the ability to look at how you are living, and make those choices for yourself.
- pmjordan 16y ago
  Exactly this. European governments have put various financial incentives in place for having kids, yet they're scratching their heads why they're not working. At least in Austria, it pretty much doesn't matter how much your household earns, up to a certain level (it's somewhere around €2300/month net if I remember correctly), as long as you have at least 2 kids. The child benefits plus family tax breaks compensate for low income. The benefits are diminished (not just proportionally) at higher income levels, which basically means there's an incentive for poor people to have kids. Having a kid probably won't reduce your standard of living if it comes with a 50% raise or whatever. One parent dropping from full-time to part time will also have little to zero financial impact at that level. At higher income levels, none of that is true. The jobs tend to be more demanding, working part time is hardly an option, and daytime childcare is expensive. The €100/month/child or so the government give you won't even get close to covering that. I don't know if the incentives are working among those with lower income - they have more kids, but for all I know they would have more anyway, but the current setup is useless for encouraging reproduction across the board.
  - zephyrfalcon 16y ago
    I don't know about Austria, but in the Netherlands there's a similar monetary compensation you get for each child; however, AFAIK it's not meant to "encourage" people to have more children. Rather, it's meant to make up for the increased cost of living once your family expands. (There's a Dutch politician quoted in the article as saying that Dutch women should have more babies... it seemed awfully odd to me. Upon closer investigation, he was talking about cranking up the birth rate from 1.7 to 2.1.)
    - randallsquared 16y ago
      it's not meant to "encourage" people to have more children. Rather, it's meant to make up for the increased cost of living once your family expands. Removing discouragement is the same overall as adding encouragement.
      - Someone 16y ago
        "Removing discouragement is the same overall as adding encouragement." It may have the same effect, but it something entirely different. For example, would you argue that legalizing the sale of tobacco or alcohol is the same as encouraging people to smoke or drink?
        pmjordan 16y ago
        I think it's pretty safe to say that paying cash for every child falls squarely in the category of "rewarding behaviour you wish to encourage", let alone subsidised housing, tax breaks and paid maternity leave. There are obviously degrees of encouragement or discouragement, but that's beside the point. Which, in case it wasn't clear, was that these measures only have a hope of working with low-income households as the advantage of fixed-size benefits (cash child benefits, paid maternity leave) diminishes proportionately, and the rest (tax breaks, housing) are inversely dependent on income.
        randallsquared 16y ago
        It's not clear to me that legalization of those drugs would have the same effect as doing something else with the intent to encourage use of them. However, in the case of money, it's a little clearer: the only difference between giving someone extra money when they have another child and replacing money they spend on an extra child is what you say about it. Now, it's true that what you say about it can have a real effect on choices and outcomes, but we don't really know enough to reliably predict what that effect is in the general case, so for practical purposes, I think we're better off assuming that the effects are negligible.
- orangecat 16y ago
  Right. The opportunity cost of having kids is much higher today than in the past. This is one reason why concerns of overpopulation if we develop life extension technologies are overstated.
- icegreentea 16y ago
  I think a large part of what it is, is the want for more. Once you reach a certain point of wealth, you realize just how possible it is to get just a bit wealthier, but doing so means putting off your kids for a couple years. And you get there, you now have a BMW... but now you want a nicer house, and everyone tells you about being living within your means, and the way everything looks right now, if you play your hands right, you can get that new house in just a couple years, if you put off your kid again... and repeat. I have no actual proof of this, but it's just a generalization of some human behavior I notice. Namely, you get much more interested into a "game" once you invested a certain amount of effort/have a certain position. For example, someone of average fitness doesn't really care about shaving 20 seconds off their 5k, or that extra 5 pounds of benchpress. But the person who is waay more fit will invest incredible amounts of effort/time/focus into those goals.
- rubashov 16y ago
  > It used to be, that people had kids simply because it was the default That's not really true in the long perspective. Everybody confuses the global post-war baby-boom with all of human history. A large fraction of Europeans were historically childless. Most women did not get married until 30 or so. A substantial number of people joined celibate religious orders.
- MaysonL 16y ago
  Another reason for having children other than just because that's the default is that if you manage to make it to old age, the ones most likely to take care of you are your children. This reason tends to not be as forceful when a social safety net is in place. Another use for children is as a cheap workforce for a family business. Child labor laws tend to discourage this, and there aren't as many family businesses anyway.
  - prodigal_erik 16y ago
    This. Children used to be indentured labor and a retirement plan for farmers, so having them was an economically rational investment. Now they're a luxury.
skowmunk 16y ago
It's having enough intelligence(or education/awareness) to know that high cost of living would put more pressures on the parents and even the kids, if more kids were to be born, coupled with the existence of free will to take a decision/action (that is, not to have children) based on that awareness - which is causing the low birth rates. A pattern that stuck me, across different countries and even different states within a country - the higher the education level generally is, the higher is the free will (or the desire to express it) and the capability to take independent actions to external pressures, the lower is the birth rate. Of course, this is putting it in simplistic terms.
JeffL 16y ago
I think this is true. I recently read "The Fates of Nations" by Paul Colinvaux, which was very interesting. One of his main points was that people are very smart about choosing how many kids to have, and they generally choose to have as many kids as they can afford. For richer people, it tends to be less, since they want to give their kids all the best: the best schools, the best daycare, set them up with a good start in life, etc. For poorer people, they don't spend as much on their kids. They don't worry so much about education because it's often out of their reach, so they have more kids since it doesn't cost them as much. (The book isn't so much about demographics as about how demographics have shaped history throughout time.)

It's not sophistication and intelligence. It's the cost of living.

by adnam 16y ago

It's not sophistication and intelligence. It's the cost of living.

I don't think it's that simple. Plenty of people living in poverty manage to have quite large families. I think instead it's the desire to have children only if you can have them and still live a the level of comfort you desire. It used to be, that people had kids simply because it was the default, and everyone did. But now that society has advanced to the point that people are able to make different decisions, it seems like often the choice is, simply to not have them. That's all I mean by sophistication--the ability to look at how you are living, and make those choices for yourself.

pmjordan 16y ago
Exactly this. European governments have put various financial incentives in place for having kids, yet they're scratching their heads why they're not working. At least in Austria, it pretty much doesn't matter how much your household earns, up to a certain level (it's somewhere around €2300/month net if I remember correctly), as long as you have at least 2 kids. The child benefits plus family tax breaks compensate for low income. The benefits are diminished (not just proportionally) at higher income levels, which basically means there's an incentive for poor people to have kids. Having a kid probably won't reduce your standard of living if it comes with a 50% raise or whatever. One parent dropping from full-time to part time will also have little to zero financial impact at that level. At higher income levels, none of that is true. The jobs tend to be more demanding, working part time is hardly an option, and daytime childcare is expensive. The €100/month/child or so the government give you won't even get close to covering that. I don't know if the incentives are working among those with lower income - they have more kids, but for all I know they would have more anyway, but the current setup is useless for encouraging reproduction across the board.
- zephyrfalcon 16y ago
  I don't know about Austria, but in the Netherlands there's a similar monetary compensation you get for each child; however, AFAIK it's not meant to "encourage" people to have more children. Rather, it's meant to make up for the increased cost of living once your family expands. (There's a Dutch politician quoted in the article as saying that Dutch women should have more babies... it seemed awfully odd to me. Upon closer investigation, he was talking about cranking up the birth rate from 1.7 to 2.1.)
  - randallsquared 16y ago
    it's not meant to "encourage" people to have more children. Rather, it's meant to make up for the increased cost of living once your family expands. Removing discouragement is the same overall as adding encouragement.
    - Someone 16y ago
      "Removing discouragement is the same overall as adding encouragement." It may have the same effect, but it something entirely different. For example, would you argue that legalizing the sale of tobacco or alcohol is the same as encouraging people to smoke or drink?
      - pmjordan 16y ago
        I think it's pretty safe to say that paying cash for every child falls squarely in the category of "rewarding behaviour you wish to encourage", let alone subsidised housing, tax breaks and paid maternity leave. There are obviously degrees of encouragement or discouragement, but that's beside the point. Which, in case it wasn't clear, was that these measures only have a hope of working with low-income households as the advantage of fixed-size benefits (cash child benefits, paid maternity leave) diminishes proportionately, and the rest (tax breaks, housing) are inversely dependent on income.
      - randallsquared 16y ago
        It's not clear to me that legalization of those drugs would have the same effect as doing something else with the intent to encourage use of them. However, in the case of money, it's a little clearer: the only difference between giving someone extra money when they have another child and replacing money they spend on an extra child is what you say about it. Now, it's true that what you say about it can have a real effect on choices and outcomes, but we don't really know enough to reliably predict what that effect is in the general case, so for practical purposes, I think we're better off assuming that the effects are negligible.
orangecat 16y ago
Right. The opportunity cost of having kids is much higher today than in the past. This is one reason why concerns of overpopulation if we develop life extension technologies are overstated.
icegreentea 16y ago
I think a large part of what it is, is the want for more. Once you reach a certain point of wealth, you realize just how possible it is to get just a bit wealthier, but doing so means putting off your kids for a couple years. And you get there, you now have a BMW... but now you want a nicer house, and everyone tells you about being living within your means, and the way everything looks right now, if you play your hands right, you can get that new house in just a couple years, if you put off your kid again... and repeat. I have no actual proof of this, but it's just a generalization of some human behavior I notice. Namely, you get much more interested into a "game" once you invested a certain amount of effort/have a certain position. For example, someone of average fitness doesn't really care about shaving 20 seconds off their 5k, or that extra 5 pounds of benchpress. But the person who is waay more fit will invest incredible amounts of effort/time/focus into those goals.
rubashov 16y ago
> It used to be, that people had kids simply because it was the default That's not really true in the long perspective. Everybody confuses the global post-war baby-boom with all of human history. A large fraction of Europeans were historically childless. Most women did not get married until 30 or so. A substantial number of people joined celibate religious orders.
MaysonL 16y ago
Another reason for having children other than just because that's the default is that if you manage to make it to old age, the ones most likely to take care of you are your children. This reason tends to not be as forceful when a social safety net is in place. Another use for children is as a cheap workforce for a family business. Child labor laws tend to discourage this, and there aren't as many family businesses anyway.
- prodigal_erik 16y ago
  This. Children used to be indentured labor and a retirement plan for farmers, so having them was an economically rational investment. Now they're a luxury.

skowmunk 16y ago

It's having enough intelligence(or education/awareness) to know that high cost of living would put more pressures on the parents and even the kids, if more kids were to be born, coupled with the existence of free will to take a decision/action (that is, not to have children) based on that awareness - which is causing the low birth rates. A pattern that stuck me, across different countries and even different states within a country - the higher the education level generally is, the higher is the free will (or the desire to express it) and the capability to take independent actions to external pressures, the lower is the birth rate. Of course, this is putting it in simplistic terms.

JeffL 16y ago

I think this is true. I recently read "The Fates of Nations" by Paul Colinvaux, which was very interesting. One of his main points was that people are very smart about choosing how many kids to have, and they generally choose to have as many kids as they can afford. For richer people, it tends to be less, since they want to give their kids all the best: the best schools, the best daycare, set them up with a good start in life, etc. For poorer people, they don't spend as much on their kids. They don't worry so much about education because it's often out of their reach, so they have more kids since it doesn't cost them as much. (The book isn't so much about demographics as about how demographics have shaped history throughout time.)