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In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?: > Already the most

In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?: > Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and test environments easier than before. What we want is a functional keyboard. They are losing this market-share quickly but you're right maybe they don't care about this market anymore. They must not since they aren't doing anything about it.

TheRealWatson 8y ago
Right. But it doesn't say developers are the majority of MBP users.
- peeters 8y ago
  Then make it an option, or risk losing the segment. When my company gave me a 2015 MBP I was really impressed with it, it seemed like the perfect hardware. I knew when I upgraded my personal laptop it'd be a Macbook Pro. Then they started handing out post-2015 MBP to others and so I've used them a bit. There is zero chance now that a MBP will be my next laptop.
- maxsilver 8y ago
  People who want functional keyboards is the majority of MBP users. Even non-technical blogs like The Verge and The Outline are complaining about major failures with the keyboards. This problem isn't developer-specific in any way.
throwawaymath 8y ago
The niche is not developers themselves; the niche is a (vocal) sample of the developer community. I'm a developer and I like the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard with touchbar. In particular: What we want is a functional keyboard. This is your opinion, but it's not necessarily the majority opinion. For example, I would rather Apple focus on other parts of the computer than the keyboard. The keyboard just isn't that meaningful to me, and I'm just as productive a developer without whatever platonic ideal of a keyboard Apple could put on the thing. I think a lot of people vastly overestimate the number of Apple customers who have an opinion about this, because it's relatively easy to see complaints on HN, blogs or tech journalism.
- jpmoyn 8y ago
  IIRC the keyboard has hardware problems and dead keys are common
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    Sure, that would be shitty. But do we have an authoritative and empirical source indicating a meaningful increase in keyboard hardware problems? When I search for information about this, I come up with articles like [1]. But none of the data is provided and the analysis isn't exactly...rigorous, to put it charitably. EDIT: Why in the world has this been downvoted to -3?! This is a reasonable comment to make complete with an example. If you disagree, blindly downvoting isn't informative of anything except that you don't like a comment. _________________ 1. https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-butterfly-keyboards-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-...
    - jetsnoc 8y ago
      Google apple keyboard class action lawsuit
    - untog 8y ago
      The only people that could conclusively provide that information is Apple, and they have no desire to do so. So all we have to go on is anecdata. My personal experiences suggest that the keyboard is problem is widespread, though by no means common.
      - skygazer 8y ago
        Uncommon but widespread: Sparse?
    - ecnahc515 8y ago
      The fact that Apple has made a keyboard repair program available indicates just how bad this is directly. We don't have numbers, no, but it's pretty obvious it's not just a small number of users experiencing this given their response.
johnchristopher 8y ago
> In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?: Marketing 101. The majority of smokers weren't cowboys.
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
  Well, if they continue, they'll lose the cowboys.
  - tjr225 8y ago
    I really doubt it.
umanwizard 8y ago
What does wanting a functional keyboard have to do with being a developer? All laptop users use the keyboard, not just software developers.
- jetsnoc 8y ago
  Good point. I was pretty myopic when I wrote that. Having a good keyboard that does not fail is something all laptop users would want.
- octorian 8y ago
  Developers are more likely to use software that's designed for multiple platforms, without priority given to the Mac. (I guess if you assume not all developers live their life in Xcode.) This means that developers are more likely to be regularly using software that actually depends on the keys they stripped off to make the touchbar, and/or software with sub-par to nonexistent touchbar support.
- rbanffy 8y ago
  Most developers I know use rarely touch the laptop keyboard. On my desk I have a bunch of monitors and an awesome mechanical keyboard. The only time I need the built-in keyboard is when I'm away from my desk.
kayoone 8y ago
i for one love the new keyboards, i don't give a damn about the touchbar and i dislike the battery usage, but the keyboard to me is near perfect. When i type on the old model now the keys feel overly mushy and inaccurate. Maybe people just give it a try for more than 20 minutes.
rdiddly 8y ago
Take a look at the photos for a moment. Curious what the keyboard is like? Too bad - Every single photo shows the keyboard from the side. Ah but you can still tell something. If there's anything to the idea that a picture sends a message or that there's such a thing as "visual language," this group of photos is loudly and stubbornly doubling down on "Thin is all that matters." Customer: "Does the keyboard work this time?" Apple: "IT'S THIN!" Considering that the drive toward thinness is precisely what's ruining the keyboards, that tells you plenty, without even reading anything.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Every single photo shows the keyboard from the side. This is standard operating practice for an international firm like Apple. The first set of images doesn't show certain details because you want it to have broad appeal. Since Apple keyboards come in a dozen or so different configurations for different markets, you show the more vague master images. Once the global media outlets have had their splash, then the regionals will get images with more details. In this case, the regional keyboards. Sorry. No conspiracy here. Just good marketing.
  - rdiddly 8y ago
    Your detailed knowledge and mild tone-deafness places you inside Apple's marketing apparatus, particularly the part about a conspiracy. Who said anything about a conspiracy? A group of people conspiring to make crap keyboards, perhaps. What song can you play in the background to convince me otherwise?
    - dang 8y ago
      Personal attacks and insinuations of shillage will get you banned here, so please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - aquadrop 8y ago
    Now way, this is ridiculous that not a single picture shows even a glance of keyboard. They just don't show you half of the laptop (and the other part is screen which you can't say much without seeing it in person).
fencepost 8y ago
In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it? That "most popular" is marketing - they have all of the developers running OSX and most of those are probably on MBP or Air, where developers using Windows or Linux are fragmented across multiple models from multiple manufacturers.
vyper91 8y ago
Here's the thing - I am big on ergonomics, keyboard and trackpads are always a super high priority for me. At my desk I have a Topre Realforce 88UB 45g keyboard that cost me like £200, a Razer Blackwidow for gaming, and a Microsoft Sculpt to switch it up. I'm fairly big on keyboards, but I do love the new MBP keyboard. I can't remember the old one enough now (I had the 2014 model previously), but I know I spoke of it as the best laptop keyboard - so I agree I probably rate it more than this one, BUT I am so used to typing on this now that I really don't think about the keyboard as a con in the slightest - you have to sit with it for a few weeks and you'll be flying - I break 120wpm on this because there is practically no travel. What I DO hate, is that effing touchbar. Worst design decision on this laptop. I am 'over' it in that I can work fine with it and don't feel like it hinders me anymore, but everytime I look at it I get annoyed they are still sticking with it. The only two cons of this MBP now it has a spec refresh -> touchbar sucks and not having ONE USB-A slot really pisses me off everytime I reach for the adapter...
- matwood 8y ago
  Agree about the keyboard speed. I can fly on the new keyboard (2017). My only complaint is the noise which they seemed to have attempted to address in the 2018.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
notatoad 8y ago
>They are losing this market-share quickly are they really though? or are people complaining but still buying it?

TheRealWatson 8y ago

Right. But it doesn't say developers are the majority of MBP users.

peeters 8y ago
Then make it an option, or risk losing the segment. When my company gave me a 2015 MBP I was really impressed with it, it seemed like the perfect hardware. I knew when I upgraded my personal laptop it'd be a Macbook Pro. Then they started handing out post-2015 MBP to others and so I've used them a bit. There is zero chance now that a MBP will be my next laptop.
maxsilver 8y ago
People who want functional keyboards is the majority of MBP users. Even non-technical blogs like The Verge and The Outline are complaining about major failures with the keyboards. This problem isn't developer-specific in any way.

throwawaymath 8y ago

The niche is not developers themselves; the niche is a (vocal) sample of the developer community. I'm a developer and I like the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard with touchbar. In particular: What we want is a functional keyboard. This is your opinion, but it's not necessarily the majority opinion. For example, I would rather Apple focus on other parts of the computer than the keyboard. The keyboard just isn't that meaningful to me, and I'm just as productive a developer without whatever platonic ideal of a keyboard Apple could put on the thing. I think a lot of people vastly overestimate the number of Apple customers who have an opinion about this, because it's relatively easy to see complaints on HN, blogs or tech journalism.

jpmoyn 8y ago
IIRC the keyboard has hardware problems and dead keys are common
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  Sure, that would be shitty. But do we have an authoritative and empirical source indicating a meaningful increase in keyboard hardware problems? When I search for information about this, I come up with articles like [1]. But none of the data is provided and the analysis isn't exactly...rigorous, to put it charitably. EDIT: Why in the world has this been downvoted to -3?! This is a reasonable comment to make complete with an example. If you disagree, blindly downvoting isn't informative of anything except that you don't like a comment. _________________ 1. https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-butterfly-keyboards-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/04/30/2016-macbook-pro-...
  - jetsnoc 8y ago
    Google apple keyboard class action lawsuit
  - untog 8y ago
    The only people that could conclusively provide that information is Apple, and they have no desire to do so. So all we have to go on is anecdata. My personal experiences suggest that the keyboard is problem is widespread, though by no means common.
    - skygazer 8y ago
      Uncommon but widespread: Sparse?
  - ecnahc515 8y ago
    The fact that Apple has made a keyboard repair program available indicates just how bad this is directly. We don't have numbers, no, but it's pretty obvious it's not just a small number of users experiencing this given their response.

johnchristopher 8y ago

> In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?: Marketing 101. The majority of smokers weren't cowboys.

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
Well, if they continue, they'll lose the cowboys.
- tjr225 8y ago
  I really doubt it.

umanwizard 8y ago

What does wanting a functional keyboard have to do with being a developer? All laptop users use the keyboard, not just software developers.

jetsnoc 8y ago
Good point. I was pretty myopic when I wrote that. Having a good keyboard that does not fail is something all laptop users would want.
octorian 8y ago
Developers are more likely to use software that's designed for multiple platforms, without priority given to the Mac. (I guess if you assume not all developers live their life in Xcode.) This means that developers are more likely to be regularly using software that actually depends on the keys they stripped off to make the touchbar, and/or software with sub-par to nonexistent touchbar support.
rbanffy 8y ago
Most developers I know use rarely touch the laptop keyboard. On my desk I have a bunch of monitors and an awesome mechanical keyboard. The only time I need the built-in keyboard is when I'm away from my desk.

kayoone 8y ago

i for one love the new keyboards, i don't give a damn about the touchbar and i dislike the battery usage, but the keyboard to me is near perfect. When i type on the old model now the keys feel overly mushy and inaccurate. Maybe people just give it a try for more than 20 minutes.

rdiddly 8y ago

Take a look at the photos for a moment. Curious what the keyboard is like? Too bad - Every single photo shows the keyboard from the side. Ah but you can still tell something. If there's anything to the idea that a picture sends a message or that there's such a thing as "visual language," this group of photos is loudly and stubbornly doubling down on "Thin is all that matters." Customer: "Does the keyboard work this time?" Apple: "IT'S THIN!" Considering that the drive toward thinness is precisely what's ruining the keyboards, that tells you plenty, without even reading anything.

reaperducer 8y ago
Every single photo shows the keyboard from the side. This is standard operating practice for an international firm like Apple. The first set of images doesn't show certain details because you want it to have broad appeal. Since Apple keyboards come in a dozen or so different configurations for different markets, you show the more vague master images. Once the global media outlets have had their splash, then the regionals will get images with more details. In this case, the regional keyboards. Sorry. No conspiracy here. Just good marketing.
- rdiddly 8y ago
  Your detailed knowledge and mild tone-deafness places you inside Apple's marketing apparatus, particularly the part about a conspiracy. Who said anything about a conspiracy? A group of people conspiring to make crap keyboards, perhaps. What song can you play in the background to convince me otherwise?
  - dang 8y ago
    Personal attacks and insinuations of shillage will get you banned here, so please don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- aquadrop 8y ago
  Now way, this is ridiculous that not a single picture shows even a glance of keyboard. They just don't show you half of the laptop (and the other part is screen which you can't say much without seeing it in person).

fencepost 8y ago

In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it? That "most popular" is marketing - they have all of the developers running OSX and most of those are probably on MBP or Air, where developers using Windows or Linux are fragmented across multiple models from multiple manufacturers.

vyper91 8y ago

Here's the thing - I am big on ergonomics, keyboard and trackpads are always a super high priority for me. At my desk I have a Topre Realforce 88UB 45g keyboard that cost me like £200, a Razer Blackwidow for gaming, and a Microsoft Sculpt to switch it up. I'm fairly big on keyboards, but I do love the new MBP keyboard. I can't remember the old one enough now (I had the 2014 model previously), but I know I spoke of it as the best laptop keyboard - so I agree I probably rate it more than this one, BUT I am so used to typing on this now that I really don't think about the keyboard as a con in the slightest - you have to sit with it for a few weeks and you'll be flying - I break 120wpm on this because there is practically no travel. What I DO hate, is that effing touchbar. Worst design decision on this laptop. I am 'over' it in that I can work fine with it and don't feel like it hinders me anymore, but everytime I look at it I get annoyed they are still sticking with it. The only two cons of this MBP now it has a spec refresh -> touchbar sucks and not having ONE USB-A slot really pisses me off everytime I reach for the adapter...

matwood 8y ago
Agree about the keyboard speed. I can fly on the new keyboard (2017). My only complaint is the noise which they seemed to have attempted to address in the 2018.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

notatoad 8y ago

>They are losing this market-share quickly are they really though? or are people complaining but still buying it?