11 ms·

This is not going to be like the other advice you get, but I've managed many projects in different organizations and I think it is sound. First and foremost, do

• thisisit 8y ago
  > Third, people do shoot the bearer of bad news. As someone who has been a bearer of bad news, this is a sound advice. Most of the time you are told - "At least give it a try". And even if you tell them - "I did try but still likely we will miss the deadline". They will ask you to check again. It is mind-numbing when it happens the first time. And most of the time you get disillusioned and think - "I need to look for another job". Guess what? Every corporate works like this. All about positivity and "You can do this" messages. And most importantly people setting up super-aggressive timelines knowing well that you are going to fail. > Second, unless you're in a startup where everyone's inexperienced, Curious about this though. So, as per you startups are run by people who don't know how to run projects?
• Talyen42 8y ago
  This is the only really true, non-theoretical advice in the thread. OP's description is generally how every project at every company has ever worked, forever.
• uptownfunk 8y ago
  Sound, practical advice, should be top comment.
• crispyambulance 8y ago
  Well put. Deadlines often slip. It happens ALL THE TIME, regardless of elaborate and sophisticated project management techniques and skilled contributors. Deadline slippage is also RARELY FATAL, but yeah, leads/PM's can absolutely get themselves metaphorically shot by bearing bad news to the wrong people at the wrong time. Some orgs hire a ridiculous number of PMP's who pretend like they're making a difference but are really just practicing an elaborate dance of goal-post-moving to appease the deadline-gods. People in such orgs often bullshit about a "track record" of being "always on time and under budget". Best thing OP can do is learn from the mistakes and speak up next time during planning phases, well before deadlines slip.
  • trh88 8y ago
    > Best thing OP can do is learn from the mistakes and speak up next time during planning phases, well before deadlines slip. How do you know deadlines are going to slip when planning the project? Makes no sense.
    • Allower 8y ago
      experience
    • icedchai 8y ago
      How to do you know? Because they almost always slip. Take the original estimate, which is always optimistic, double it, add another 50% "just in case", and you're a lot closer.
    • crispyambulance 8y ago
      After you gain experience from previous slipped deadlines, you can see patterns that lead to slippage and, more importantly, get wise to the smell of unrealistic expectations. That's how you know that deadlines are going to slip.
      • ljw1001 8y ago
        you're assuming that deadlines are set based on the amount of time the work requires. Not often true. Generally deadlines are set before anyone knows how much work is required.
• chiefalchemist 8y ago
  > "Third, people do shoot the bearer of bad news." True. But under such circumstances chances are pretty good someone(s) is going to be shot anyway. I think the answer is solid. But if going this route I would update my resume and reach out to my network. If this ends badly you want to be prepared.
  • nojvek 8y ago
    Always be prepared. At the end of the day you are just a resource to a company. Someone who implements some spec for a bit of dough.
• Zeebrommer 8y ago
  I hate to agree with you. This honesty/positivity dilemma is something I'm struggling with.
  • indigochill 8y ago
    Occasionally people talk about the "compliment sandwich". 1. Focus on something going well. 2. By the way, could you fix this little thing? 3. Return to positive stuff. This formula can be applied to delivering honesty amid positivity. Ideally whoever you're communicating is mature enough to just take honest feedback straight, but if they aren't then this can be a safe(r) way to deliver it.
    • frankydp 8y ago
      This seemingly simple tactic, WORKS. It works even with mature folks. It is just harder to be angry when someone pads your ego or your mood even just a little bit. The 'compliment' does not even have to be direct or a compliment per se, it can even be something positive like news/results about the initiant or a third party. You are just pulling out some positive endorphin mojo, to slow down the angry mojo.
• trh88 8y ago
  There are a LOT of assumptions here. > The rest of the org probably made a schedule they know you can't meet > Most people probably already know you'll be late, but aren't saying it out loud > There's a good chance <your boss> already knows as you suspect. > It's probably not new news to <the project owner> either. Doesn't take much for one, if not all of those to be untrue. And by the time it unravels, it's too late.
• lostcolony 8y ago
  So much this it's painful. You will never be thanked for telling them uncomfortable truths, even if they -don't- know. Even the private conversation is dangerous; as you say, keep it as low key and minimal as possible ("i have some concerns about the timeline" is literally all you should say unless they ask, and your answers to any followup question should be equally circumspect). Instead, as others have mentioned, just make sure you document what does get done. Ideally have a decent backlog of things that need to get done, but that presumes a PO who does their job (and it sounds like he/she probably isn't). That's your CYA, and your innocent response if they ask why you didn't raise the alarm.
  • AlexCoventry 8y ago
    What's PO?
    • CaptainZapp 8y ago
      Project Owner
    • hoppyluke 8y ago
      Product Owner
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • thunfischbrot 8y ago
      ProductOwner, may also be ProcessOwner in some companies.
    • 8y ago
• jrs95 8y ago
  Honestly if this is true in your organization you should probably be looking for another job anyways. Even if this is common that doesn't mean it isn't dysfunctional.
• Dwolb 8y ago
  I was really upset at this comment at first. After thinking about it some more I like that it questions fundamental assumptions about the original question namely, “What happens if the deadline slips?” If the project is late, does the company go out of business? Do people get fired? Is the overall deliverable unusable within the org? Is the deal lost? If the answer to these is a big “no” then totally agreed with OP to not sound an alarm. However configuring a skilled team and leading it to do excellent work and constantly improve should be something most people strive for.
  • arethuza 8y ago
    Or worse, an executive misses getting some of their bonus... NB Based on one fairly large project I was involved in for a large company where there was a huge drive to get the system delivered on time then.... nothing. Nobody used it for months. Eventually we found out about the real reason.
• OliverJones 8y ago
  This advice is spot on. I would add one thing: make sure you don't surprise your manager. Talk to her. You and she should be on the same page about your project's progress. It's her responsibility to help the rest of your business do the best they can with reality. If sales of your existing product have dried up because prospects are waiting for the modernized one, that's a big problem (been there). But it's a problem belonging to product and sales management, not you. Unless you are a founder. Renovating software is hard, much harder than greenfield software. All the best to you.
• ptero 8y ago
  This is a good advice and all three points are spot on (on time deliveries are unusual; management likely knows you are late; messengers often get shot). You do need to figure out for yourself a realistic, pretty safe time when you will be ready: an extra month? three months? never? You say the work is outside your team's comfort zone. This is potentially a much bigger red flag than being late. Will the team learn and deliver, or it just cannot execute at the speed requirements are changing or will soon be? Be brutally honest with yourself. If you think you can safely deliver the product in, say, three extra months, then keep working but be ready with good estimates when the time comes to redo the schedule. When that discussion comes (usually suddenly), having a clear plan and realistic estimates that you can confidently present will likely give you (most of) what you ask for. IME really bad options are either agreeing to fix everything in a week (if you know it will take three months) or not having an estimate at all "we are burning midnight oil and I cannot tell you when we will be done". Either could lead to quick problems. IME when "what do we do with this crap" time comes, senior management does not care why you are late (everyone is at least some of the time). They want to know if you have a plan and look ready to execute it. Just my 2c. Good luck!
  • scubaguy 8y ago
    Great answer
• nojvek 8y ago
  I don’t understand why he/she needs to sugercoat things so much and do things over lunch, drinks/beer? Imagine this is a female lead asking her male boss out for drinks so she can be the casual bearer of bad news? That’s just bull. If your organization isn’t willing to get real and is blaming people instead of processes, it’s the wrong org to be. Just say things as they are. I’d just raise this in my 1:1 with boss and boss’s boss. “It’s highly likely that we’ll miss X deadline, because of Y reasons. Here are some options we have. Either cut scope to meet deadline, pull in more resources for Z work, that can be parallelized, or push back the deadline.”.
  • ljw1001 8y ago
    Either you're working in an unusually healthy environment, or you haven't done this often enough to see it backfire. If it's the first. You're very fortunate.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • s73v3r_ 8y ago
    You're not technically wrong, but most of us don't have the good fortune to work in an organization where we can "be real". Yet, we still have to put food on the table. You, in the organization you work in, might feel comfortable going to your boss and boss's boss, but as you read in the parent comment, I hope you understand that not every organization is that way.
• imron 8y ago
  > Have a quiet conversation with your boss over lunch or beers - not a meeting If you do this, follow it up with an email outlining everything you said so you have a paper trail that you brought it up with your boss.
• sailfast 8y ago
  This advice is a good first read on the political elements before you make a real move, but it’s not a plan, and it sounds like a recipe for mediocrity. (Not that there is anything wrong with that) If you actually want to have some integrity when you talk about deadlines before it eats up your insides and you lose sleep you will need to have these beer / lunch conversations to gauge the level of appetite for change and then start talking about how to get something shipped on time as well as the consequences for not shipping on time. Sounds like you already have this dialog with your manager. Keep talking about how best to manage expectations up the chain. You’ll want to get buy-in to reduce scope or make whatever other changes you need, otherwise you’ll have to lie to keep up the facade that things will ship on time. It will burn you out. If the read in the parent comment is bad for your org and it’s NOT normal to BS deadlines and ship late then no paper trail or written warnings, risks, and issues brings with it some badness as well - judge for your organization. I’m guessing you may already know the answer. This is probably not the best career ladder advice at some firms, but at all costs make sure you never lie for anybody. Keep your integrity. Be honest. Sleep at night. Of course sometimes “honest” is an excuse to be pessimistic. Look hard to make sure your dire warnings are not “chicken little” pessimism, then talk it out with your management, but don’t lie for them and be honest about your engineering and your team.
• pc86 8y ago
  There's no reason you can't have an off-the-books meeting and discuss this (separately) with your boss and the PO. No need to go to the extra step of setting up a lunch or having a drink with them, especially if it's not something you do regularly. If you've been there for 3 years and never had a drink socially with the PO (who presumably OP doesn't report to other than in this status report context) then you suggest it just so you can talk about how you're not hitting the schedule, it's possible they don't take it well.
• tootie 8y ago
  Disagree. Just be real. When I joined my current company, they had a project kicking off with a ridiculously short timeline. I asked the product manager to think about how many stories were in the backlog, how many might be added as we went, how many stories they could get through per sprint given the team capacity and then you can put a rough date on it and continue adjusting every sprint as the backlog shrinks and you get a clear picture of velocity. Our first pass put us about 400% over the allotted time (an estimate that has held up pretty well since then). Next step, is to spell this out to your project team leadership completely unvarnished. Tell them your conclusion and how you got there. Don't let them bargain over your reasoning unless they actually have better evidence. The key is to never say "this is too hard" or "we don't have enough people" or make any other excuses. Not should you be overly emotional. Just give the facts. It's a fait accompli. Then just ask how they want to deal with it. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from beating around the bush. I've done this more than once and was always taken seriously. One time we had even already signed a fixed-bid contract before I was able to give them an estimate. What you've committed too doesn't change the course of what's actually going to happen.
  • scardine 8y ago
    This is how things should run if the work culture was logic based but with rare exceptions it isn't. As a borderline autistic person I have a very direct communication style and lost account of how many times I burned myself for failing to "beat around the bush". You can't say "the project is doomed" even if it is true. You can't say it will be so over budget and take so long that it would be better to cut the losses now. Don't expect to go unpunished for saying "the king is nude". According to my experience both parents are absolutely right, but the first is how most organizations work and the second is an ideal seldom found in the real world.
    • scardine 8y ago
      PS: you do get some leeway when you just joined a company, enjoy your honeymoon grace period.
      • 8y ago
• cmicali 8y ago
  Strongly disagree. I think this is the cynical view, and I'm sure is valid in many companies, but raising potential issues early is really important - other people can't fix problems if they don't know about them. It sounds like you have visibility into a problem that others may not, tell them! Don't assume people already know. Like some of the other posts said - be real. If people don't respond well to this then the company has a bigger problem than a slipped schedule.
  • qaq 8y ago
    This is not cynical this just reflects how the world is.
    • musage 8y ago
      No, it's one persons decision to help make their part of the world so, excuse it with "that's how it is", and ignore all the people living in the same "world" and having completely different outcomes, because they retained the integrity others got tricked into giving away. My experience with honesty is sometimes some added initial challenge, sometimes less challenge, and always a long tail of payoffs. Meanwhile, some people cheat each other and themselves in the hopes for some material gains that they hope will give them some charisma, because they threw the natural charisma that comes from a fully developed person away in the beginning, as a price of admission -- and then it never does. Of course, if everybody went the same route, if everybody also sold out their own person, then nobody would realize what shadows of their potential these people have become, and that's why they try to drag everything into this pit of cowardly dishonesty. But even if everybody suffered from their affliction, their suffering wouldn't be lessened, therefore it's better to not join them in their suffering. Oh, and that's not being cynical either, it's just being cold. Being cruel would be working on "immortality", so people can get what they ask for, forever. You know, as in the curse variant of "may you live a long life (as the pathetic person you are)".
  • ljw1001 8y ago
    You could be right, but in my experience it is extremely unlikely that the lead is the only person who realizes that the project is going to be late. One sign this isn't healthy environment, frankly, is that no one has (apparently) asked the lead how he/she thinks the project is going. This also suggests that they already know and/or don't want to know.
• forapurpose 8y ago
  I agree with much of your premise but one problem I run into: If you have these off-the-record meetings, where is your documentation if they say, 'I didn't know it would be late'? In my experience, people not only dislike bad news, they ignore it: First they hear what they want to hear, i.e., what is not threatening to them. 'Project delivery will certainly be late' is heard as 'the next milestone will be late' or 'we're a little behind schedule and will catch up' or 'it's making another project late', etc. It's truly incredible what people will construct in their minds. What's the saying? 'Don't expect people to understand what their salary depends on them not understanding'? Second, like everyone, they ignore or put off dealing with bad news. (Probably, that's a temptation of the OP.) Then they say, 'I didn't know.' It depends on the people and the organization, of course, but you do you protect yourself from being thrown under the bus?
  • ljw1001 8y ago
    Documentation won't save you if the shit truly hits the fan. What will save you, if anything, it's that the leadership considers you one of them.
    • forapurpose 8y ago
      I agree in general; 'I told you so and it's your fault' doesn't help a relationship in crisis. But ... It can compel some attention and provide an opportunity for extra thought. An unwanted verbal message over lunch is easily forgotten or misremembered, intentionally or not, weeks or months later. A written one is harder to ignore and provides something the recipient can re-read and ponder later. Also, there are circumstances where documentation is good to have. For example, it may help in a company with more layers; your email to the guy 2 layers up may help when the guy 4 layers up gets involved.
• tboyd47 8y ago
  Is there a better way than this? Or is this just how it has to be?
• barrkel 8y ago
  This is the right path if you're a lead on one team of many in a larger org, you don't want to risk needing to find another job, and you don't have a burning desire to make a difference and build a track record of change. If you're in a smaller company, and you have clout due to being closer to the top of the food chain, and you have a vested interest in the success of the operation, to the point that it's worthwhile cutting your losses and moving elsewhere if the outcome isn't positive, then the higher risk strategy of pushing for change makes more sense.
• JackFr 8y ago
  Agree. Also management above you might have scope-reducing contingency plans which they will slide into place to ensure that something gets released on the schedule.
• gascan 8y ago
  Caveat, this seems to play out fine if the project slips 10-20%, which is sort of within expectation, and your competitors may be slipping the same amount as we speak. If however the project is due to slip 200%, or 400%- I guess I don't have specific advice, but that kind of project is the sort of project that can sink a company. Of course, you only really get to that point if vice-bigwigs are lying severely to the bigwigs, in which case there may be nothing a team lead can do about it.
• blablabla123 8y ago
  > Third, people do shoot the bearer of bad news. You can earn > a rep as a negative person if you make _true_ predictions > out-loud that don't fit the common desire. I've heard this very often, both as advise, complaint and even in an intimidating manner. And yes, I've seen this, people who stay kind of positive stay in their position even if they screw up a project completely so it has to be "rebooted". In fact I've also observed a super negative person, being a colleague of mine for 2.5 years and staying good with everybody despite one screwed up project. On the other hand people have put me in various settings under high pressure to keep my mouth shut both internally and externally. (That was only in the startup/co-founding setting though.) My conclusion: I'd take this advice with a biiiiiiig grain of salt. In my experience people get away with everything as long as they stay confident and keep their shit together. Disclaimer: I'm not a team lead
  • badbug 8y ago
    "Perception is reality" You can be a negative/realist as long as your perceived value outweighs your "bad" attitude. The problem with this is that people are really bad at placing value on soft skills and all it takes is one clueless manager to sandbag you. Everything op said above is spot on
    • blablabla123 8y ago
      I get the point for an Engineer. There the chances to endless promotions are far higher if you stay nice and calm all the time. Hard earned experience, never got a promotion but always more money and "crazier" jobs over time. But I mean for anyone with team responsibility: staying silent is bad for you, which is okay if you're in for the career. I totally respect that, people should be ambitious if they want to. But this is the recipe to make workplaces toxic and bad for the whole team.
      • badbug 8y ago
        I'm not saying you have to a Bright Ray of Sunshine all the time. But it might not work out so well of you are the office grouch because it wears people out.
• jobu 8y ago
  > Be prepared with details, but if he/she doesn't ask for them, don't provide any. Also be prepared with solutions. Any decent manager or product owner is going to ask things like: "What's a realistic timeline?" or "What could be cut to get closer to the timeline?" It would worry me more if they didn't ask details. In my experience that means they sent you on a fools errand expecting you to fail and take the heat for it.
• jf- 8y ago
  OP needs to be concerned about the blame game if the project is a big deal. The manager won’t want to take blame, same for everyone else in the chain. The best thing OP can do is raise it quietly with the manager, and not terribly forcefully, note that this was raised. I also think going to anyone other than the direct manager is a bad idea. Then take some actions that can be used in retrospect as evidence that OP was trying to ameliorate the situation. Fundamentally this is a management issue, don’t let it become a game of blaming engineering for management’s flaws.
  • jehlakj 8y ago
    This isn’t fundamentally a management issue. Lead roles should be able to give them a better idea of how long a project will take. if they expect delays, it should’ve been brought up way before. There’s little to no room for change without a dent in the company’s reputation at this point. However, these things happen time to time and when you have a stubborn PO like that from the beginning, you should have started looking elsewhere way before as a lead role. I’ve never heard of situations where a manager takes the blame. It always falls to the engineers.
  • ljw1001 8y ago
    Often, if you 'stay positive' and don't make too many waves no-one will get blamed. Like all cultures groups of managers like to see problems as being with external groups or things outside their control, and become more tight-knit as a result. If you do too much boat-rocking, though, you may find yourself looked on as "external" to the other responsible people, which is not a good place to be.
• notyourwork 8y ago
  My old boss had a phrase, "bad news doesn't age well". I have followed this throughout my career and it's served me well. I have not found it to be bad to be the bearer of bad news. I have found that it makes me perceived as transparent and honest about expectations. Bearers of bad news are frowned upon when the bad news is their fault and not presented when its determined to exist. I think this is a distinction that should be made with your phrase.
• lgsilver 8y ago
  I really agree with this advice. I would add that during those quiet conversations the best leads usually say, "we can make this deadline, but we'll need to do x/y/z", where x is increasing resources by a %, y is decreasing scope by some feature(s), and z is increasing time alotted by some days. That constructive feedback is actionable and adds value. If your manager (or the business) chooses to ignore it, don't be frustrated, but when it's constructive, finite and actionable, you'll be surprised how often they'll make the changes.
• ryandrake 8y ago
  This is basically the opposite of what I would advise. Count the number of “probably” and “good chance” in that reply! 1. A small course correction can work wonders early on, but if you wait until the ship is seconds from the iceberg there’s nothing anyone can do. Or use the cancer analogy: early detection can be the difference between life and death. 2. Yes, sometimes deadlines are padded and you’re silently expected to miss a little. Sometimes they are not and you’re not. How do you know which one applies to you and your project? 3. Having private conversations is fine but private conversations can be denied and privately made decisions do not become the broadly understood plan of record, leading to confusion and ambiguity, which are risk multipliers. 4. A positive attitude is good and hiding real problems, evading responsibility, and playing corporate games might work in the short term. However if that becomes what you are known for, it will limit your career long term.
• atlantic 8y ago
  From personal experience, I would endorse the above advice. I'm all for being honest, but organizations are strange beasts, and I once got fired for something just like this. As long as you are sure you will eventually succeed, ignore the problem and keep going. Being late is no big deal; it's actually a confirmation of how amazing and innovative your product is. If someone senior brings up the issue, don't flinch, and be ready with an alternative timeline.
• flanker 8y ago
  How should you go about delivering a bad news and solutions for without being termed as a negative influence?