14 ms·

LOL at SFFD giving any shits about costs. This is the same department that power grabbed emergency medical response away from dedicated paramedics in ambulances

LOL at SFFD giving any shits about costs. This is the same department that power grabbed emergency medical response away from dedicated paramedics in ambulances. Responding in full ladder trucks to take care of drunk homeless people...yeah, they do that, costing millions every year in added expenses and road repairs. But good for them for saving a few bucks on ladders, that must make a huge difference.

AndrewUnmuted 8y ago
Coming from NYC, it is somewhat surprising to see such anger directed at fire departments. Here, the FDNY seems universally loved.
- snowwrestler 8y ago
  Consider the impact of 9/11. Prior to that, FDNY was of course well-liked, but not to the incredible degree it is today. The role they played in the response, and the heavy losses they suffered when the towers fell, resulting in a huge outpouring of grief, support, thanks, etc. It's still going today. Other fire departments perhaps benefit a little from that, but not to same degree as FDNY.
- gshulegaard 8y ago
  TBH I am from the Bay Area, work in SF, and I have never seen ire like that directed at SFFD before. I wouldn't take this example as representative or common.
- kenhwang 8y ago
  SF in general seems to be more vitriolic towards public services. Might be the entrepreneurial mindset of the region rubbing off.
- Gargoyle 8y ago
  The LAFD might be the most admired municipal organization in the city. They have a very difficult range of environments and handle them very well.
  - jpster 8y ago
    From afar it seems the LAPD has a horrible reputation. So the LAFD must seem like saints by comparison.
- callmeed 8y ago
  I don't think its anger. It's just that police and fire departments have garnered this "can do no wrong" mindset to the extent that trying to fix what they actually do wrong (waste money) has turned into a political third rail. Fewer fires but larger departments [0], 6-figure trucks driving to fender benders, pension spiking, minimum staffing requirements & huge overtime pay (union-negotiated), etc. Look, I appreciate what first responders do. I just don't think they're above reproach. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2015/09/04/05316abe-517c-11e5-933e-7d06c647a395_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2015/09/04/05316abe-...
- leesalminen 8y ago
  Can confirm. Grew up in the area. Lots of neighbors, family and friends are FDNY. Everyone loves them.
- asveikau 8y ago
  I'm a transplant, but in my casual observations living here it seems like SFFD is pretty impressive and worthy of respect. I've seen neighbors call for minor issues, the response time has been very good and the calls taken seriously. It's almost as if they're keeping cultural memory of 1906 alive, i.e. they really don't want widespread fires.
- curun1r 8y ago
  I've got nothing but praise and admiration for the actual firefighters in SFFD. They do shit for out city that no one else wants to do and should rightfully have the same kind of admiration that FDNY gets. But for the people running the department, specifically those in those positions in the early aughts (naughties?) who maneuvered to eliminate dedicated paramedics from the city, I've got nothing but hate. I had friends who were part of ambulance crews who were forced to either transition into being full-fledged firefighters or get let go and have to look for work in neighboring cities. None of them wanted to run into burning buildings, so they all left. It was a nonsensical decision to gain political power and ended up increasing costs and negatively impacting a lot of other highly dedicated folks who should receive similar amounts of praise. First responders of all sorts, whether they be police, fire fighters, paramedics or otherwise, are always taking risks to help the rest of us. I'd hope that New Yorkers would have similar admiration for the folks in ambulances that also put their lives on the line to help their fellow citizens. Now imagine that some fucks at the top of the NYFD decided to fuck over the ambulance personnel in an attempt to gain more political clout while simultaneously wasting a ton of taxpayer money doing nonsensical things like needlessly sending the large 2-driver firetrucks to the scene of medical emergencies. Then how would you feel about NYFD? You'd probably feel the way I do about the SFFD and draw a clear distinction between the men and women who actually put on a uniform and serve their community and the bureaucrats at the top who are wasting our money and destroying our roads.
- robszumski 8y ago
  There was that time an _on-duty_ firefighter was drunk driving the rig, hit a motorcyclist and everyone involved tried to cover it up, including fleeing the scene. He didn't get questioned by the police for hours. https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Former-SF-firefighter-gets-probation-after-12819416.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Former-SF-firefighter-g...
- cascom 8y ago
  It’s also a function of the job - people don’t hate them because the vast majority of their work is non-confrontational and they don’t pose a risk to citizens (write tickets, arrest people etc) so most people are happy to see them when they arrive somewhere they are needed. Put it another way - I’m willing to guess that a large percentage of people here have had or witnessed a negative interaction with a police officer, and far fewer could say the same of a firefighter or EMT...
exegete 8y ago
Also from the article: >There's a city-specific reason why San Francisco has stuck with wood rather than swap over to metals, and the answer lies in looking up. The high-voltage cables and wires that guide the city's (oft-maligned) public transport system Muni, and trolley cars crisscross above nearly every street, mean that ladders made of conductive elements are generally just too dangerous to use. >"I think there's a lot of fire departments that went aluminum and wish they could go back to wood but it's too expensive," Braun says. "There's only two ladders manufacturers in the states—and we're one of 'em. We only make our own ladders and can barely even keep up with what we have."
- gsnedders 8y ago
  How do other countries with OHLE cope? AFAIK, most use metal ladders. Just rely on quickly getting the wires isolated?
  - VectorLock 8y ago
    I think when the electrical service wires have insulation it isn't as much of an issue as opposed to the electricity driven trollies needing bare conductors.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      OHLE is specially overhead equipment like that used for trams, trolleybuses, etc. Most places I was thinking of don't have electrical supply wires overground.
    - rickycook 8y ago
      melbourne has probably the worlds most extensive tram network, with exposed overhead wires and our fire department uses metal ladders
      - VectorLock 8y ago
        Having never been to melbourne how close to they run to multi-level structures? In San Francisco the wires powering trollies are practically feet from dwellings.
gshulegaard 8y ago
I am not sure what you are referring to. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in October of 2017 and I was treated by SFFD paramedics in an ambulance.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Why does the fire department respond to a medical emergency?
  - Bucephalus355 8y ago
    Often this is because many firefighters are also certified EMTs. So sometimes, it’s just easier to have the fire department respond. That being said, I live in a rural state where this makes sense. I cannot imagine the crowded streets of SF are good for this.
  - thatfrenchguy 8y ago
    They do in most countries actually. There's a lot of similarity in the skills you need.
    - grkvlt 8y ago
      Don't most countries have a separate ambulance/paramedic service for medical emergencies? Certainly in the UK we have fire, police and ambulance as the three emergency services, one (or more) of which will be sent by the dispatcher following a 999 emergency call. I think most commonwealth countries are the same.
  - lvturner 8y ago
    Because Ambulances tend not to carry the kind of heavy duty cutting equipment required to get people out of mangled cars
  - firemancoder 8y ago
    Often times fire engines and trucks are staffed with 3 EMTs and at least 1 Paramedic. Then the ambulance with 2 paramedics, or 1 paramedic 1 EMT arrives. It's all about level of care. Overkill for a twisted ankle sure but crucial for a cardiac or other life threatening event.
ellard 8y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/us/san-francisco-firefighters-become-unintended-safety-net-for-the-homeless.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/us/san-francisco-firefigh... You're not wrong, but it's more that they are in a position to help and the city doesn't seem to want to have another organization deal with the homeless. They're not exactly gunning for the role of taking care of the homeless.
- arkis22 8y ago
  That's kind of a silly thing to say given that the government of SF spends hundreds of millions of dollars on the homeless a year.
  - LMYahooTFY 8y ago
    My immediate reaction is incredulity at the notion a city could spend hundreds of millions on its homeless population and still have a homeless population... Are there further details/good articles you would be able to provide?
    - xeromal 8y ago
      The common trope in LA and SF is that more and more homeless migrate to the west coast every day due to the services and weather.
    - mcpherrinm 8y ago
      According to [1], the city gets 40-50 people off the streets every week, but there are 100-150 new homeless people each week. So at that simple numbers game, the homelessness problem is not yet being solved. You can see the budget at [2]. Most of the budget goes to Supportive Housing, ie, paying for housing for people to keep them off the street. 1: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/29-million-increase-for-San-Francisco-12902707.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/29-million-incre... 2: http://hsh.sfgov.org/overview/budget/ http://hsh.sfgov.org/overview/budget/
    - d0lph 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
skate22 8y ago
I don't like this type of argument. Dollars saved are dollars saved, even if there are bigger problema that could be solved
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
This is part of a first responder program, occasionally saving lives. Plenty of cities across the US do this sort of thing. If you have an emergency - especially a medical one - whoever is closest is the right person to respond, be it fire department, ambulance, or police. 3 to 10 minutes in an emergency can make a huge difference. Like it or not, a drunk homeless person is generally a health and/or safety issue. Coming in trucks that they would usually drive also means that if there happens to be a fire call while they are out helping someone with possible first aid, they can leave from the scene, keeping more people safe. For auto accidents, sometimes the fire truck is one of the better things to have at the scene for visibility purposes. I would also like to add that many - but not all - fire departments also drive ambulances. Does it cost money? Sure. But if it helps folks, I'm for it. There are other options, but I'm not convinced they will cost less money (more ambulances of different sorts, more manpower for first responders positioned in places across cities, and so on... all have their costs). I'd fully recommend actually looking into the reasons for some of this, and what other options are for similar outcomes.
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  A lady at a bar passed out for a few seconds last week, and they sent out a full ladder truck, and ambulance, and four sheriff cars, even though she had resumed consciousness before the dispatcher was done gathering info. I would think they could have coordinated via radio and picked one vehicle to show up. A couple of the responders even seemed to be annoyed that she was conscious when they got there. That didn't seem very efficient to me.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    That in itself likely wasn't. But we are human and stuff happens. We tend to notice such outliers. Having flaws and miscommunication doesn't really mean the system is all bad, though.

AndrewUnmuted 8y ago

Coming from NYC, it is somewhat surprising to see such anger directed at fire departments. Here, the FDNY seems universally loved.

snowwrestler 8y ago
Consider the impact of 9/11. Prior to that, FDNY was of course well-liked, but not to the incredible degree it is today. The role they played in the response, and the heavy losses they suffered when the towers fell, resulting in a huge outpouring of grief, support, thanks, etc. It's still going today. Other fire departments perhaps benefit a little from that, but not to same degree as FDNY.
gshulegaard 8y ago
TBH I am from the Bay Area, work in SF, and I have never seen ire like that directed at SFFD before. I wouldn't take this example as representative or common.
kenhwang 8y ago
SF in general seems to be more vitriolic towards public services. Might be the entrepreneurial mindset of the region rubbing off.
Gargoyle 8y ago
The LAFD might be the most admired municipal organization in the city. They have a very difficult range of environments and handle them very well.
- jpster 8y ago
  From afar it seems the LAPD has a horrible reputation. So the LAFD must seem like saints by comparison.
callmeed 8y ago
I don't think its anger. It's just that police and fire departments have garnered this "can do no wrong" mindset to the extent that trying to fix what they actually do wrong (waste money) has turned into a political third rail. Fewer fires but larger departments [0], 6-figure trucks driving to fender benders, pension spiking, minimum staffing requirements & huge overtime pay (union-negotiated), etc. Look, I appreciate what first responders do. I just don't think they're above reproach. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2015/09/04/05316abe-517c-11e5-933e-7d06c647a395_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2015/09/04/05316abe-...
leesalminen 8y ago
Can confirm. Grew up in the area. Lots of neighbors, family and friends are FDNY. Everyone loves them.
asveikau 8y ago
I'm a transplant, but in my casual observations living here it seems like SFFD is pretty impressive and worthy of respect. I've seen neighbors call for minor issues, the response time has been very good and the calls taken seriously. It's almost as if they're keeping cultural memory of 1906 alive, i.e. they really don't want widespread fires.
curun1r 8y ago
I've got nothing but praise and admiration for the actual firefighters in SFFD. They do shit for out city that no one else wants to do and should rightfully have the same kind of admiration that FDNY gets. But for the people running the department, specifically those in those positions in the early aughts (naughties?) who maneuvered to eliminate dedicated paramedics from the city, I've got nothing but hate. I had friends who were part of ambulance crews who were forced to either transition into being full-fledged firefighters or get let go and have to look for work in neighboring cities. None of them wanted to run into burning buildings, so they all left. It was a nonsensical decision to gain political power and ended up increasing costs and negatively impacting a lot of other highly dedicated folks who should receive similar amounts of praise. First responders of all sorts, whether they be police, fire fighters, paramedics or otherwise, are always taking risks to help the rest of us. I'd hope that New Yorkers would have similar admiration for the folks in ambulances that also put their lives on the line to help their fellow citizens. Now imagine that some fucks at the top of the NYFD decided to fuck over the ambulance personnel in an attempt to gain more political clout while simultaneously wasting a ton of taxpayer money doing nonsensical things like needlessly sending the large 2-driver firetrucks to the scene of medical emergencies. Then how would you feel about NYFD? You'd probably feel the way I do about the SFFD and draw a clear distinction between the men and women who actually put on a uniform and serve their community and the bureaucrats at the top who are wasting our money and destroying our roads.
robszumski 8y ago
There was that time an _on-duty_ firefighter was drunk driving the rig, hit a motorcyclist and everyone involved tried to cover it up, including fleeing the scene. He didn't get questioned by the police for hours. https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Former-SF-firefighter-gets-probation-after-12819416.php https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Former-SF-firefighter-g...
cascom 8y ago
It’s also a function of the job - people don’t hate them because the vast majority of their work is non-confrontational and they don’t pose a risk to citizens (write tickets, arrest people etc) so most people are happy to see them when they arrive somewhere they are needed. Put it another way - I’m willing to guess that a large percentage of people here have had or witnessed a negative interaction with a police officer, and far fewer could say the same of a firefighter or EMT...

exegete 8y ago

Also from the article: >There's a city-specific reason why San Francisco has stuck with wood rather than swap over to metals, and the answer lies in looking up. The high-voltage cables and wires that guide the city's (oft-maligned) public transport system Muni, and trolley cars crisscross above nearly every street, mean that ladders made of conductive elements are generally just too dangerous to use. >"I think there's a lot of fire departments that went aluminum and wish they could go back to wood but it's too expensive," Braun says. "There's only two ladders manufacturers in the states—and we're one of 'em. We only make our own ladders and can barely even keep up with what we have."

gsnedders 8y ago
How do other countries with OHLE cope? AFAIK, most use metal ladders. Just rely on quickly getting the wires isolated?
- VectorLock 8y ago
  I think when the electrical service wires have insulation it isn't as much of an issue as opposed to the electricity driven trollies needing bare conductors.
  - gsnedders 8y ago
    OHLE is specially overhead equipment like that used for trams, trolleybuses, etc. Most places I was thinking of don't have electrical supply wires overground.
  - rickycook 8y ago
    melbourne has probably the worlds most extensive tram network, with exposed overhead wires and our fire department uses metal ladders
    - VectorLock 8y ago
      Having never been to melbourne how close to they run to multi-level structures? In San Francisco the wires powering trollies are practically feet from dwellings.

gshulegaard 8y ago

I am not sure what you are referring to. I was involved in a motorcycle accident in October of 2017 and I was treated by SFFD paramedics in an ambulance.

chrisseaton 8y ago
Why does the fire department respond to a medical emergency?
- Bucephalus355 8y ago
  Often this is because many firefighters are also certified EMTs. So sometimes, it’s just easier to have the fire department respond. That being said, I live in a rural state where this makes sense. I cannot imagine the crowded streets of SF are good for this.
- thatfrenchguy 8y ago
  They do in most countries actually. There's a lot of similarity in the skills you need.
  - grkvlt 8y ago
    Don't most countries have a separate ambulance/paramedic service for medical emergencies? Certainly in the UK we have fire, police and ambulance as the three emergency services, one (or more) of which will be sent by the dispatcher following a 999 emergency call. I think most commonwealth countries are the same.
- lvturner 8y ago
  Because Ambulances tend not to carry the kind of heavy duty cutting equipment required to get people out of mangled cars
- firemancoder 8y ago
  Often times fire engines and trucks are staffed with 3 EMTs and at least 1 Paramedic. Then the ambulance with 2 paramedics, or 1 paramedic 1 EMT arrives. It's all about level of care. Overkill for a twisted ankle sure but crucial for a cardiac or other life threatening event.

ellard 8y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/us/san-francisco-firefighters-become-unintended-safety-net-for-the-homeless.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/us/san-francisco-firefigh... You're not wrong, but it's more that they are in a position to help and the city doesn't seem to want to have another organization deal with the homeless. They're not exactly gunning for the role of taking care of the homeless.

arkis22 8y ago
That's kind of a silly thing to say given that the government of SF spends hundreds of millions of dollars on the homeless a year.
- LMYahooTFY 8y ago
  My immediate reaction is incredulity at the notion a city could spend hundreds of millions on its homeless population and still have a homeless population... Are there further details/good articles you would be able to provide?
  - xeromal 8y ago
    The common trope in LA and SF is that more and more homeless migrate to the west coast every day due to the services and weather.
  - mcpherrinm 8y ago
    According to [1], the city gets 40-50 people off the streets every week, but there are 100-150 new homeless people each week. So at that simple numbers game, the homelessness problem is not yet being solved. You can see the budget at [2]. Most of the budget goes to Supportive Housing, ie, paying for housing for people to keep them off the street. 1: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/29-million-increase-for-San-Francisco-12902707.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/29-million-incre... 2: http://hsh.sfgov.org/overview/budget/ http://hsh.sfgov.org/overview/budget/
  - d0lph 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

skate22 8y ago

I don't like this type of argument. Dollars saved are dollars saved, even if there are bigger problema that could be solved

Broken_Hippo 8y ago

This is part of a first responder program, occasionally saving lives. Plenty of cities across the US do this sort of thing. If you have an emergency - especially a medical one - whoever is closest is the right person to respond, be it fire department, ambulance, or police. 3 to 10 minutes in an emergency can make a huge difference. Like it or not, a drunk homeless person is generally a health and/or safety issue. Coming in trucks that they would usually drive also means that if there happens to be a fire call while they are out helping someone with possible first aid, they can leave from the scene, keeping more people safe. For auto accidents, sometimes the fire truck is one of the better things to have at the scene for visibility purposes. I would also like to add that many - but not all - fire departments also drive ambulances. Does it cost money? Sure. But if it helps folks, I'm for it. There are other options, but I'm not convinced they will cost less money (more ambulances of different sorts, more manpower for first responders positioned in places across cities, and so on... all have their costs). I'd fully recommend actually looking into the reasons for some of this, and what other options are for similar outcomes.

stronglikedan 8y ago
A lady at a bar passed out for a few seconds last week, and they sent out a full ladder truck, and ambulance, and four sheriff cars, even though she had resumed consciousness before the dispatcher was done gathering info. I would think they could have coordinated via radio and picked one vehicle to show up. A couple of the responders even seemed to be annoyed that she was conscious when they got there. That didn't seem very efficient to me.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  That in itself likely wasn't. But we are human and stuff happens. We tend to notice such outliers. Having flaws and miscommunication doesn't really mean the system is all bad, though.