5 ms·

How can any software developer at, say, Apple or Facebook see this and not think they're under compensated.

by sidlls 8y ago

aikinai 8y ago
Because that's not how labor economics works. Also, why do you focus on Apple and Facebook (#33 and #42)? If you think employees should be compensated per revenue, then oil drillers are the ones that should be complaining; they should be paid far more than software developers.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  >they should be paid far more than software developers. They most likely are being paid more, when adjusting for cost of living. You can work on a rig making $100k a year in areas where $250k buys you a very nice 3500 SQ ft home with a big backyard. Something that would cost millions in SF, NYC, Seattle, etc.
  - davrosthedalek 8y ago
    True in general, but the cost of buying a house is a bad example. Most of that is the cost of the ground, and that doesn't depreciate. So when the developer walks away from the job and moves, they can settle down with millions. I is ttrue though for rent, food etc.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      >they can settle down with millions Yes, assuming an ever upward trend that never crashes. Which everyone should know by now will not likely be the case.
- UK-Al05 8y ago
  Oil rig workers generally are paid well and in low cost areas.
  - ojbyrne 8y ago
    At the peak of the fracking boom, Williston, North Dakota had the highest rents in the country: https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/community-dividend/north-dakota-oil-boomtown-has-nations-highest-rent https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/community-divide...
- adventured 8y ago
  Overall the energy sector is still the best paying. Median compensation for energy sector employees: $123k (tech is at $96k). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-05/shale-country-upstages-silicon-valley-in-fat-paycheck-lure https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-05/shale-cou...
- sidlls 8y ago
  Because of the demographics at HN and my tenure in the tech industry and lack of it in others on that list.
burntrelish1273 8y ago
I didn't down-vote. The article was about revenue per employee, what goes to the employer; this is rarely linked to compensation going to employees. The only way for employees to earn livable wages is to demand it in an organized manner, because fair wages compared to business performance are almost never given voluntarily. The serfs shouldn't argue about which one has the better status... divide-and-conquer is fail.
acchow 8y ago
Revenue per employee is not a measure at all of your production as an employee.
- gdilla 8y ago
  It's not supposed to be. Your salary is a better indication of that. RPE is just a heuristic to compare companies in the same industry to see if one is more bloated or not - the thinking is if company A can do this with lower head count, company B with lower RPE may be more inefficient. It's not perfect, just one out of many things you would analyze. You would look at other indicators to give you more (or less) confidence.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
I'm more concerned about the janitors at Facebook that are earning $15 per hour with minimal benefits [1]. Those free meals and free gyms at Facebook and Apple are only for the alphas, the epsilons are there simply to cook their food and clean up after them. To actually answer your question though, companies will pay the lowest wage possible while still being able to sufficiently fill positions. For engineers at Facebook this is $250k. For janitors and cooks it's $15 p/h. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/facebook-workers-housing-janitors-unique-parsha https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/facebook-...
- bfrog 8y ago
  Same problem with the gig economy
- sidlls 8y ago
  Very good point about the epsilons. But at least in the story even they got their soma.
- jldugger 8y ago
  > Those free meals and free gyms at Facebook and Apple are only for the alphas, the epsilons are there simply to cook their food and clean up after them. Apple, at least, charges all employees for food and gym. And staffing the dining center has become hard enough that they pay a thousand dollar referral bonus.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  There's an interesting comment in that article, by someone who doesn't believe in the Copenhagen intepretation of social justice. > She said she liked working at Facebook and didn’t resent the engineers and product managers she cleans up after. “I know that they are the ones that are making the money,” she said in Spanish. “They are the ones doing the hard job and getting fair pay.”
jldugger 8y ago
One thing that skews these numbers is what counts towards the denominator. Facebook has tons of contractors working inside their datacenters doing breakfix. Do they count towards the 'employee' count? The other bit is how much of SV's employees are paid in stocks; after 4 years of RSU granting cycles and appreciation, you may well be earning more in stock vests than base salary.

How can any software developer at, say, Apple or Facebook see this and not think they're under compensated.

by sidlls 8y ago

How can any software developer at, say, Apple or Facebook see this and not think they're under compensated.

Because that's not how labor economics works. Also, why do you focus on Apple and Facebook (#33 and #42)? If you think employees should be compensated per revenue, then oil drillers are the ones that should be complaining; they should be paid far more than software developers.

jjeaff 8y ago
>they should be paid far more than software developers. They most likely are being paid more, when adjusting for cost of living. You can work on a rig making $100k a year in areas where $250k buys you a very nice 3500 SQ ft home with a big backyard. Something that would cost millions in SF, NYC, Seattle, etc.
- davrosthedalek 8y ago
  True in general, but the cost of buying a house is a bad example. Most of that is the cost of the ground, and that doesn't depreciate. So when the developer walks away from the job and moves, they can settle down with millions. I is ttrue though for rent, food etc.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    >they can settle down with millions Yes, assuming an ever upward trend that never crashes. Which everyone should know by now will not likely be the case.
UK-Al05 8y ago
Oil rig workers generally are paid well and in low cost areas.
- ojbyrne 8y ago
  At the peak of the fracking boom, Williston, North Dakota had the highest rents in the country: https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/community-dividend/north-dakota-oil-boomtown-has-nations-highest-rent https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publications/community-divide...
adventured 8y ago
Overall the energy sector is still the best paying. Median compensation for energy sector employees: $123k (tech is at $96k). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-05/shale-country-upstages-silicon-valley-in-fat-paycheck-lure https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-05/shale-cou...
sidlls 8y ago
Because of the demographics at HN and my tenure in the tech industry and lack of it in others on that list.

burntrelish1273 8y ago

I didn't down-vote. The article was about revenue per employee, what goes to the employer; this is rarely linked to compensation going to employees. The only way for employees to earn livable wages is to demand it in an organized manner, because fair wages compared to business performance are almost never given voluntarily. The serfs shouldn't argue about which one has the better status... divide-and-conquer is fail.

acchow 8y ago

Revenue per employee is not a measure at all of your production as an employee.

gdilla 8y ago
It's not supposed to be. Your salary is a better indication of that. RPE is just a heuristic to compare companies in the same industry to see if one is more bloated or not - the thinking is if company A can do this with lower head count, company B with lower RPE may be more inefficient. It's not perfect, just one out of many things you would analyze. You would look at other indicators to give you more (or less) confidence.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

I'm more concerned about the janitors at Facebook that are earning $15 per hour with minimal benefits [1]. Those free meals and free gyms at Facebook and Apple are only for the alphas, the epsilons are there simply to cook their food and clean up after them. To actually answer your question though, companies will pay the lowest wage possible while still being able to sufficiently fill positions. For engineers at Facebook this is $250k. For janitors and cooks it's $15 p/h. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/facebook-workers-housing-janitors-unique-parsha https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/facebook-...

bfrog 8y ago
Same problem with the gig economy
sidlls 8y ago
Very good point about the epsilons. But at least in the story even they got their soma.
jldugger 8y ago
> Those free meals and free gyms at Facebook and Apple are only for the alphas, the epsilons are there simply to cook their food and clean up after them. Apple, at least, charges all employees for food and gym. And staffing the dining center has become hard enough that they pay a thousand dollar referral bonus.
fjsolwmv 8y ago
There's an interesting comment in that article, by someone who doesn't believe in the Copenhagen intepretation of social justice. > She said she liked working at Facebook and didn’t resent the engineers and product managers she cleans up after. “I know that they are the ones that are making the money,” she said in Spanish. “They are the ones doing the hard job and getting fair pay.”

jldugger 8y ago

One thing that skews these numbers is what counts towards the denominator. Facebook has tons of contractors working inside their datacenters doing breakfix. Do they count towards the 'employee' count? The other bit is how much of SV's employees are paid in stocks; after 4 years of RSU granting cycles and appreciation, you may well be earning more in stock vests than base salary.