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I don't think either China or America has values worth defending at this point in history.

by Frondo 8y ago

merpnderp 8y ago
You realize you just said freedom, equality, and justice aren't worth defending?
- gonvaled 8y ago
  From the point of view of non-American citizens, your constitution does not matter much. So, for 95% (or 85%, if we talk about China) of people, those rights are meaningless. Not even sure they are very relevant to Americans either.
- mikec3010 8y ago
  I'd believe you if it weren't for the TSA, rich/poor divide (and subsequent access to education, healthcare, and employment), and daily police shootings of unarmed citizens.
  - merpnderp 8y ago
    What you are describing is a silly parody of reality. People are spending their lives making these things better, following these values. Politicians struggle to do the best possible. These values are very alive in the US.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  Or he said the US does not really value those?
- mindslight 8y ago
  "American Values", in this context, is used as a bait-and-switch. The version that you're referencing would have most of the NSA up on the gallows. But it is obviously not the version running our society and being pushed onto the rest of the world.
  - jexah 8y ago
    You would be horrendously surprised if you knew what was going on in other western countries. You go on YouTube to find long form discussions between two (real) intellectuals on important topics and the vast vast majority of them are Americans. There is nobody fighting for western values anywhere else in the western world. Everybody is too scared. America as it stands today, is the most free country in the world. It may sound grim, and that's because it is.
    - mindslight 8y ago
      Even taking your assertions as true - this does not mean that anything done to protect the country is itself in line with those values, or that it cannot actually undermine those values. Such thinking is the general fallacy of power. I don't indict NSA/USG because I want the US to collapse, but because their behaviors are setting up the collapse.
- Frondo 8y ago
  I think those are good values. I also don't think those are American values in 2018.
- eksemplar 8y ago
  America’s values haven’t been freedom, justice or equality for quite a while. From an outside perspective, America is a horrible country where the rich live in a world of their own and everyone else suffers. You have the largest population percentage of jailed citizens of any country on earth. Yet one of the smallest percentages of rich people getting convicted for crimes they are indicted with - so there isn’t really justice or equality in your justice system. Freedom for the most part is true, but you need wealth to utilize it. Equality is a joke. You’re the only country in the world that has no maternity leave. You’re the only country in the west that has no workers rights on maximum hours, paid vacation or sick leave. You have one of the best healthcare systems in the world for the 1% who can afford it and one of the worst healthcare systems in the world for those who can’t. You have next to no social mobility, you have a terrible educational system and you truly punish unskilled langur. It’s ironic, but America isn’t even in the top 100 as far as the American dream goes because breaking out of the social casts you’re born into is so hard. Don’t get me wrong, America is a symbol of freedom compared to China and it saddens me that you’re constantly falling behind, but the next 150 years of human history belong to China.
  - jexah 8y ago
    A few things, from a non-US resident. Freedom isn't the right to do what you want. It's the right to be left to your own devices, within the law. America is the most successful meritocracy in the world. Freedom of endevour, if you will. Second, equality don't mean everybody is equal. It means given any two people with the same qualifications, experience, work ethic, etc and same risk via statistical analysis, they should have equal opportunity. Third (and I don't even why you're arguing about employment opportunities), employment is a contract between two people. If somebody can't find a job paying 20 dollars an hour for their service, they should have the right to negotiate a lower wage to justify their employment. A minimum wage of above 20 dollars simply makes that person unemployable. Talking about paid vacation, it's the same thing. If you're worth it then your employer will provide it. If you are not worth it, and it is a right, then too bad you don't get a job. Some US engineers I know get insane amounts of paid leave that I could only dream of (coming from a country with mandated vacation). America along with China are two of the very few countries left where people get compensated what they're worth. China not so much because of rampant socially accepted bribing, connections, etc.

I don't think either China or America has values worth defending at this point in history.

by Frondo 8y ago

I don't think either China or America has values worth defending at this point in history.

merpnderp 8y ago

You realize you just said freedom, equality, and justice aren't worth defending?

gonvaled 8y ago
From the point of view of non-American citizens, your constitution does not matter much. So, for 95% (or 85%, if we talk about China) of people, those rights are meaningless. Not even sure they are very relevant to Americans either.
mikec3010 8y ago
I'd believe you if it weren't for the TSA, rich/poor divide (and subsequent access to education, healthcare, and employment), and daily police shootings of unarmed citizens.
- merpnderp 8y ago
  What you are describing is a silly parody of reality. People are spending their lives making these things better, following these values. Politicians struggle to do the best possible. These values are very alive in the US.
marcosdumay 8y ago
Or he said the US does not really value those?
mindslight 8y ago
"American Values", in this context, is used as a bait-and-switch. The version that you're referencing would have most of the NSA up on the gallows. But it is obviously not the version running our society and being pushed onto the rest of the world.
- jexah 8y ago
  You would be horrendously surprised if you knew what was going on in other western countries. You go on YouTube to find long form discussions between two (real) intellectuals on important topics and the vast vast majority of them are Americans. There is nobody fighting for western values anywhere else in the western world. Everybody is too scared. America as it stands today, is the most free country in the world. It may sound grim, and that's because it is.
  - mindslight 8y ago
    Even taking your assertions as true - this does not mean that anything done to protect the country is itself in line with those values, or that it cannot actually undermine those values. Such thinking is the general fallacy of power. I don't indict NSA/USG because I want the US to collapse, but because their behaviors are setting up the collapse.
Frondo 8y ago
I think those are good values. I also don't think those are American values in 2018.
eksemplar 8y ago
America’s values haven’t been freedom, justice or equality for quite a while. From an outside perspective, America is a horrible country where the rich live in a world of their own and everyone else suffers. You have the largest population percentage of jailed citizens of any country on earth. Yet one of the smallest percentages of rich people getting convicted for crimes they are indicted with - so there isn’t really justice or equality in your justice system. Freedom for the most part is true, but you need wealth to utilize it. Equality is a joke. You’re the only country in the world that has no maternity leave. You’re the only country in the west that has no workers rights on maximum hours, paid vacation or sick leave. You have one of the best healthcare systems in the world for the 1% who can afford it and one of the worst healthcare systems in the world for those who can’t. You have next to no social mobility, you have a terrible educational system and you truly punish unskilled langur. It’s ironic, but America isn’t even in the top 100 as far as the American dream goes because breaking out of the social casts you’re born into is so hard. Don’t get me wrong, America is a symbol of freedom compared to China and it saddens me that you’re constantly falling behind, but the next 150 years of human history belong to China.
- jexah 8y ago
  A few things, from a non-US resident. Freedom isn't the right to do what you want. It's the right to be left to your own devices, within the law. America is the most successful meritocracy in the world. Freedom of endevour, if you will. Second, equality don't mean everybody is equal. It means given any two people with the same qualifications, experience, work ethic, etc and same risk via statistical analysis, they should have equal opportunity. Third (and I don't even why you're arguing about employment opportunities), employment is a contract between two people. If somebody can't find a job paying 20 dollars an hour for their service, they should have the right to negotiate a lower wage to justify their employment. A minimum wage of above 20 dollars simply makes that person unemployable. Talking about paid vacation, it's the same thing. If you're worth it then your employer will provide it. If you are not worth it, and it is a right, then too bad you don't get a job. Some US engineers I know get insane amounts of paid leave that I could only dream of (coming from a country with mandated vacation). America along with China are two of the very few countries left where people get compensated what they're worth. China not so much because of rampant socially accepted bribing, connections, etc.