3 ms·

yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). The point of that nonse

by toss1 8y ago

yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). The point of that nonsense is to sow distrust in all institutions, especially science. Since the susceptible people have no real idea about how science works, it's just swapping out one belief structure or another (even tho it's promoted as 'think for yourself', that doesn't work if you don't have the tools -- your ignorance is just as good as any experts' knowledge). Once the actual experts are distrusted, any belief can be swapped in for these people, who are now useful idiots (in the Lennin sense).

coldtea 8y ago
>yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). It's not its literal expression -- but it could very well be the point. Those people don't opt for "moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth" because of the inherent value in those propositions. There's a sentimental reason behind that attachment, and it has more to do with a distrust in science and "all institutions" that stems from the damage they've seen them do, and the lies those can say that affect their daily life. A subsequent attachment to e.g. "moon hoax" is an extreme way to express that. Like a kid who rebels against their parents and becomes e.g. a neo-nazi, or takes heroin, but their real problem is that their dad beats mom, or mom is a control freak, or whatever. In other words, these people opt for things like the "moon hoax conspiracy" in the same way that a society under some big fear opts for movies that represent this fear metaphorically (e.g. the Godzilla movies in post-Hiroshima Japan, or the zombie movies in the US https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/zombie-political-history https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/... ). But one has to see beyond the surface to actually understand these people (and of course some are just nuts).
- toss1 8y ago
  Right, two sides of the same... You're talking about the 'pull-side', the psych reasons (beyond mere ignorance) that pull people into this crap. I'm talking about the reasons behind the 'push-side', the reasons all this crap is produced & promoted, which is to harness all those latent problems into a weaponized political mass that can do real damage.
api 8y ago
I disagree about the direction of cause and effect here. The distrust comes first, then people go for nutty "alternative fact" stuff. We have many reasons to distrust our institutions. Trust is hard to earn and easy to lose. For starters in my life span I've watched us be consciously lied into one major $1T+ war, a series of bank bailouts that enriched those responsible for a financial crisis at the expense of the general public, the largest financial fraudster in recent memory (Bernie Madoff) being short-listed for SEC director prior to his scam collapsing, and countless cases of "science for hire" (nutritional science is the worst) being used to sell stuff. I feel like our authorities are harping on "fake news" and related things to evade their own responsibility for this mess.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >I disagree about the direction of cause and effect here. The distrust comes first, then people go for nutty "alternative fact" stuff. Exactly what I tried to say above. One can ask eg. why people trusted science (and revered scientists) more in 50s and 60s US. It wasn't because they were less religious then, obviously. It was because they didn't have many chances, decade after decade, to get cynical.
- toss1 8y ago
  Right, the mistrust creates the fertile soil on which these conspiracy theories can grow & spread. And I completely agree that we have massive legitimate cause for mistrust. But they don't create & promote the theories, then weaponize the believers. E.g., you and I don't watch the scams, then go out & produce videos about how the world is flat, jet condensation trail are chemical sprays to kill us all, etc., etc.. That comes from sources truing to manipulate & weaponize the ambient discontent.

by toss1 8y ago

coldtea 8y ago

>yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). It's not its literal expression -- but it could very well be the point. Those people don't opt for "moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth" because of the inherent value in those propositions. There's a sentimental reason behind that attachment, and it has more to do with a distrust in science and "all institutions" that stems from the damage they've seen them do, and the lies those can say that affect their daily life. A subsequent attachment to e.g. "moon hoax" is an extreme way to express that. Like a kid who rebels against their parents and becomes e.g. a neo-nazi, or takes heroin, but their real problem is that their dad beats mom, or mom is a control freak, or whatever. In other words, these people opt for things like the "moon hoax conspiracy" in the same way that a society under some big fear opts for movies that represent this fear metaphorically (e.g. the Godzilla movies in post-Hiroshima Japan, or the zombie movies in the US https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/zombie-political-history https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/... ). But one has to see beyond the surface to actually understand these people (and of course some are just nuts).

toss1 8y ago
Right, two sides of the same... You're talking about the 'pull-side', the psych reasons (beyond mere ignorance) that pull people into this crap. I'm talking about the reasons behind the 'push-side', the reasons all this crap is produced & promoted, which is to harness all those latent problems into a weaponized political mass that can do real damage.

api 8y ago

I disagree about the direction of cause and effect here. The distrust comes first, then people go for nutty "alternative fact" stuff. We have many reasons to distrust our institutions. Trust is hard to earn and easy to lose. For starters in my life span I've watched us be consciously lied into one major $1T+ war, a series of bank bailouts that enriched those responsible for a financial crisis at the expense of the general public, the largest financial fraudster in recent memory (Bernie Madoff) being short-listed for SEC director prior to his scam collapsing, and countless cases of "science for hire" (nutritional science is the worst) being used to sell stuff. I feel like our authorities are harping on "fake news" and related things to evade their own responsibility for this mess.

coldtea 8y ago
>I disagree about the direction of cause and effect here. The distrust comes first, then people go for nutty "alternative fact" stuff. Exactly what I tried to say above. One can ask eg. why people trusted science (and revered scientists) more in 50s and 60s US. It wasn't because they were less religious then, obviously. It was because they didn't have many chances, decade after decade, to get cynical.
toss1 8y ago
Right, the mistrust creates the fertile soil on which these conspiracy theories can grow & spread. And I completely agree that we have massive legitimate cause for mistrust. But they don't create & promote the theories, then weaponize the believers. E.g., you and I don't watch the scams, then go out & produce videos about how the world is flat, jet condensation trail are chemical sprays to kill us all, etc., etc.. That comes from sources truing to manipulate & weaponize the ambient discontent.