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I've wondered for a while if what you describe might be the next dark age. The last one was built on the use of religion in tandem with feudal power. The new da

by api 8y ago

I've wondered for a while if what you describe might be the next dark age. The last one was built on the use of religion in tandem with feudal power. The new dark age replaces religion with surveillance and scientific propaganda and feudalism with corporatism.

jacquesm 8y ago
There has been a war-on-science going on for quite a while now, if there is a dark age coming I would fully expect that to be the real origin.
- api 8y ago
  During the last dark age there was a war on religion, and precisely because control of religion was a major cornerstone of power. Being into Pagan, occult, non-mainstream Christian (e.g. Catharism, early Protestantism), or Judaism could get you jailed or killed in gruesome ways. The "war on science" is not about stamping out science any more than the inquisition was about making people atheists. It's about eliminating lines of scientific inquiry that can be used to challenge power.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. In which case, not only it's not the real origin of some upcoming dark age, but the last voice of freedom before it.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    > Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. No, it definitely isn't. It's the willful and deceitful spreading of lies and portraying of scientists as bogeyman rather than the bringers of bad news. It's the purposeful act of dumbing down citizens and putting lies instead of facts in their heads to use 15 years down the line when those in school today become tomorrows voters. That has absolutely nothing to do with abuses of technology (of which there are plenty, no argument there). The biggest abusers of tech tend to be those in power, closely followed by corporations, but the second is happy as long as they make bank, the first as long as they can use it to cement their position in power. Look no further than what has happened at the EPA to get an idea of how incredible this whole story is.
    - 21 8y ago
      There have been quite a few cases where "science" was used for "willful and deceitful spreading of lies". See for example how now we find out that the whole "fats are bad for you, carbs are good" scientific "fact" was manufactured by the sugar industry. This has infested the highest level of the scientific establishment (the american dietary recomandations), so you can't say that it was only the uninformed who were deceived.
      - toss1 8y ago
        yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). The point of that nonsense is to sow distrust in all institutions, especially science. Since the susceptible people have no real idea about how science works, it's just swapping out one belief structure or another (even tho it's promoted as 'think for yourself', that doesn't work if you don't have the tools -- your ignorance is just as good as any experts' knowledge). Once the actual experts are distrusted, any belief can be swapped in for these people, who are now useful idiots (in the Lennin sense).
        coldtea 8y ago
        >yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). It's not its literal expression -- but it could very well be the point. Those people don't opt for "moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth" because of the inherent value in those propositions. There's a sentimental reason behind that attachment, and it has more to do with a distrust in science and "all institutions" that stems from the damage they've seen them do, and the lies those can say that affect their daily life. A subsequent attachment to e.g. "moon hoax" is an extreme way to express that. Like a kid who rebels against their parents and becomes e.g. a neo-nazi, or takes heroin, but their real problem is that their dad beats mom, or mom is a control freak, or whatever. In other words, these people opt for things like the "moon hoax conspiracy" in the same way that a society under some big fear opts for movies that represent this fear metaphorically (e.g. the Godzilla movies in post-Hiroshima Japan, or the zombie movies in the US https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/zombie-political-history https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/... ). But one has to see beyond the surface to actually understand these people (and of course some are just nuts).
  - woodandsteel 8y ago
    >Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. No, like in the case of global climate change, the war on science is to enable the abuses of technology, not eliminate it. And that is true for many other cases. In other cases like evolution and the age of the universe, the motivation is religious, not the abuses of technology. I have read recently that this true for many of the flat-earthers. I am rather puzzled that you seem to be unaware of the various motivations involved.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >I am rather puzzled that you seem to be unaware of the various motivations involved. I'm rather puzzled that you seem to stop at surface level motivations.
- drvdevd 8y ago
  This. Science is about sharing knowledge. Any such “dark age” is the opposite of that and thus antithetical to scientific progress.

by api 8y ago

jacquesm 8y ago

There has been a war-on-science going on for quite a while now, if there is a dark age coming I would fully expect that to be the real origin.

api 8y ago
During the last dark age there was a war on religion, and precisely because control of religion was a major cornerstone of power. Being into Pagan, occult, non-mainstream Christian (e.g. Catharism, early Protestantism), or Judaism could get you jailed or killed in gruesome ways. The "war on science" is not about stamping out science any more than the inquisition was about making people atheists. It's about eliminating lines of scientific inquiry that can be used to challenge power.
coldtea 8y ago
Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. In which case, not only it's not the real origin of some upcoming dark age, but the last voice of freedom before it.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  > Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. No, it definitely isn't. It's the willful and deceitful spreading of lies and portraying of scientists as bogeyman rather than the bringers of bad news. It's the purposeful act of dumbing down citizens and putting lies instead of facts in their heads to use 15 years down the line when those in school today become tomorrows voters. That has absolutely nothing to do with abuses of technology (of which there are plenty, no argument there). The biggest abusers of tech tend to be those in power, closely followed by corporations, but the second is happy as long as they make bank, the first as long as they can use it to cement their position in power. Look no further than what has happened at the EPA to get an idea of how incredible this whole story is.
  - 21 8y ago
    There have been quite a few cases where "science" was used for "willful and deceitful spreading of lies". See for example how now we find out that the whole "fats are bad for you, carbs are good" scientific "fact" was manufactured by the sugar industry. This has infested the highest level of the scientific establishment (the american dietary recomandations), so you can't say that it was only the uninformed who were deceived.
    - toss1 8y ago
      yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). The point of that nonsense is to sow distrust in all institutions, especially science. Since the susceptible people have no real idea about how science works, it's just swapping out one belief structure or another (even tho it's promoted as 'think for yourself', that doesn't work if you don't have the tools -- your ignorance is just as good as any experts' knowledge). Once the actual experts are distrusted, any belief can be swapped in for these people, who are now useful idiots (in the Lennin sense).
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >yes, but that is most definitely NOT the point of the anti-science propaganda (moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth, etc.++). It's not its literal expression -- but it could very well be the point. Those people don't opt for "moon landing is a hoax, chemtrails, flat earth" because of the inherent value in those propositions. There's a sentimental reason behind that attachment, and it has more to do with a distrust in science and "all institutions" that stems from the damage they've seen them do, and the lies those can say that affect their daily life. A subsequent attachment to e.g. "moon hoax" is an extreme way to express that. Like a kid who rebels against their parents and becomes e.g. a neo-nazi, or takes heroin, but their real problem is that their dad beats mom, or mom is a control freak, or whatever. In other words, these people opt for things like the "moon hoax conspiracy" in the same way that a society under some big fear opts for movies that represent this fear metaphorically (e.g. the Godzilla movies in post-Hiroshima Japan, or the zombie movies in the US https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/zombie-political-history https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/31/13440402/... ). But one has to see beyond the surface to actually understand these people (and of course some are just nuts).
- woodandsteel 8y ago
  >Perhaps this "war on science", however naive and inarticulate its proponents, is actually a war on the abuses of technology, such as the parent describes. No, like in the case of global climate change, the war on science is to enable the abuses of technology, not eliminate it. And that is true for many other cases. In other cases like evolution and the age of the universe, the motivation is religious, not the abuses of technology. I have read recently that this true for many of the flat-earthers. I am rather puzzled that you seem to be unaware of the various motivations involved.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >I am rather puzzled that you seem to be unaware of the various motivations involved. I'm rather puzzled that you seem to stop at surface level motivations.
drvdevd 8y ago
This. Science is about sharing knowledge. Any such “dark age” is the opposite of that and thus antithetical to scientific progress.