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There is most certainly timeless user-interface design. Look at a book from 500 years ago compared to a book today. While the underlying tech is completely cha

There is most certainly timeless user-interface design. Look at a book from 500 years ago compared to a book today. While the underlying tech is completely changed, the fundamental principles of book-user interaction remain the same. A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch. The piano has kept 88 keys and 3 pedals for centuries. The asdf keyboard layout will never change. When it comes to website design, we see some standardization happening across the industry for what a website ought to be. I expect the homogenization will continue as websites get measured for business results and find local optima for solving the various problems.

dwaltrip 8y ago
> The asdf keyboard layout will never change. I'd take this bet in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, we might be dead before I prove you wrong, so I wouldn't get to collect my winnings.
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
  I am inclined to think that it will last at least as long as the current family of languages. Of course, I also consider this to be a tragedy since it's not a particularly good layout.
  - iambateman 8y ago
    Tragic relative to what could have been, amazing relative to what used to be...I mean hey, it could be a pen and paper. ;)
- jacquesm 8y ago
  They layout will persist until the keyboards themselves are gone.
keehun 8y ago
Agreed. Although your post reminded me that I just saw a 97-key Bosendorfer. You could feel and actually count the vibrations of the lowest C key!
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
> Look at a book from 500 years ago compared to a book today. While the underlying tech is completely changed, the fundamental principles of book-user interaction remain the same. Well, if we went back further, we might get to codices or even scrolls, which are fundamentally different from books in their user interaction. "never say never" will always be more right than "never".
seszett 8y ago
> A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch. The bayonet mount is alive in most of the English-speaking world (except for North America). It has been mostly phased out in France but it can still be found. > The asdf keyboard layout will never change. I wish more people knew that the asdf keyboard layout isn't something universal. I can't play games that use the wasd keys without allowing remapping because of that.
- Arn_Thor 8y ago
  The fact that alternatives exist doesn't mean the design isn't timeless
- johannes1234321 8y ago
  >> A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch. > The bayonet mount is alive in most of the English-speaking world (except for North America). It has been mostly phased out in France but it can still be found. And right now we're at a time where LEDs are rolled out everywhere, giving much more free hands to lamp designers.
  - taneq 8y ago
    > And right now we're at a time where LEDs are rolled out everywhere, giving much more free hands to lamp designers. You'd think so, but houses still have bayonet fittings so LED bulbs are standardizing on those (or on screw fittings, I guess, in parts of the world that use those.) GU10 fittings do seem popular with the smaller bulbs, though. LEDs can get away with using these for higher output bulbs because they're so much more efficient.
    - johannes1234321 8y ago
      It is true, that there are still many lamps with traditional separation between lamp and light using a standardized connector. However the trend shows that flexibility of directly building in long living LEDs is increasing. Out of curiosity I was just searching for desk lamps on Amazon and first two pages were all LED-bases, which makes sense, since those are all design elements (sometimes of better, sometimes worse designs) where LED gives lot's of freedom. Looking for ceiling lights gives a few classic connectors, but also lots of LED. (This might be accelerated since I'm in EU, which banned classic lightbulbs for energy reasons ... over alternatives which are a waste issue)
dredmorbius 8y ago
Surely you mean the QWERTZ layout.
- keyle 8y ago
  I think he meant QWERTY yeah... Maybe not aware of the reach of AZERTY in the world, and other keyboards.
  - imron 8y ago
    I think you missed the fact that the person you are replying to uses a German keyboard.
dredmorbius 8y ago
Canons of page construction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of_page_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of_page_construction
coldseattle 8y ago
My piano has 92 keys. (Bosendorfer 225). 85 keys was pretty common until the 1920s. And the third pedal is relatively new. Some pianos (Fazioli) have 4 pedals.
- keehun 8y ago
  Does it go down to the low E?
  - coldseattle 8y ago
    F
wilsonnb2 8y ago
You're just as likely to see a keyboard instrument with 25, 37, 49, 61, 73, or 76 keys as you are 88 these days. Pitch and mod wheels are also a staple of certain kinds of keyboard instruments. Aftertouch adds pressure sensors. The most advanced form of the keyboard interface at the moment would probably be the ROLI seaboard [1]. I do expect that the 88 key piano will be a staple of music for a long, long time, but I'm not sure I would call it's interface timeless seeing as it's still being modified and adapted to this day. [1] https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SeaboardG-61--roli-seaboard-grand-stage https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SeaboardG-61--roli-s...
- slaymaker1907 8y ago
  I think the principle is still correct considering how much the basic keyboard interface has remained the same.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  And yet, some random composer or musician from 100's of years ago (Say, one F. Chopin or J.S. Bach) transported to today would have absolutely no problem recognizing and using the instrument.
  - wilsonnb2 8y ago
    That's also true. The interface is in fact much older than the piano, having first been used on harpsichords, clavichords, and (I think) pipe organs. If I'm not mistaken, the black+white keyboard we use today was invented around the 1400's. The piano itself dates back only to the 1700's. I can see the argument for the keyboard being a timeless UI because it's lasted mostly unchanged for about 600 years now. I can also see the argument that 600 years isn't that long in the scheme of musical instruments. We've found ancient flutes from at least 30,000 years ago. The lyre, popular in ancient Greece, is not that different from a modern harp. Lutes are thought to have been present in Mesopotamia around 3000 BC. Site note - I was surprised to learn that Bach lived before the piano became popular and apparently did not endorse the instrument until a few years before his death [1]. He would be familiar with the interface from earlier instruments, though. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano#Early_fortepiano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano#Early_fortepiano

dwaltrip 8y ago

> The asdf keyboard layout will never change. I'd take this bet in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, we might be dead before I prove you wrong, so I wouldn't get to collect my winnings.

yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
I am inclined to think that it will last at least as long as the current family of languages. Of course, I also consider this to be a tragedy since it's not a particularly good layout.
- iambateman 8y ago
  Tragic relative to what could have been, amazing relative to what used to be...I mean hey, it could be a pen and paper. ;)
jacquesm 8y ago
They layout will persist until the keyboards themselves are gone.

keehun 8y ago

Agreed. Although your post reminded me that I just saw a 97-key Bosendorfer. You could feel and actually count the vibrations of the lowest C key!

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

> Look at a book from 500 years ago compared to a book today. While the underlying tech is completely changed, the fundamental principles of book-user interaction remain the same. Well, if we went back further, we might get to codices or even scrolls, which are fundamentally different from books in their user interaction. "never say never" will always be more right than "never".

seszett 8y ago

> A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch. The bayonet mount is alive in most of the English-speaking world (except for North America). It has been mostly phased out in France but it can still be found. > The asdf keyboard layout will never change. I wish more people knew that the asdf keyboard layout isn't something universal. I can't play games that use the wasd keys without allowing remapping because of that.

Arn_Thor 8y ago
The fact that alternatives exist doesn't mean the design isn't timeless
johannes1234321 8y ago
>> A lamp in the 1920’s had a screw bulb and a switch. > The bayonet mount is alive in most of the English-speaking world (except for North America). It has been mostly phased out in France but it can still be found. And right now we're at a time where LEDs are rolled out everywhere, giving much more free hands to lamp designers.
- taneq 8y ago
  > And right now we're at a time where LEDs are rolled out everywhere, giving much more free hands to lamp designers. You'd think so, but houses still have bayonet fittings so LED bulbs are standardizing on those (or on screw fittings, I guess, in parts of the world that use those.) GU10 fittings do seem popular with the smaller bulbs, though. LEDs can get away with using these for higher output bulbs because they're so much more efficient.
  - johannes1234321 8y ago
    It is true, that there are still many lamps with traditional separation between lamp and light using a standardized connector. However the trend shows that flexibility of directly building in long living LEDs is increasing. Out of curiosity I was just searching for desk lamps on Amazon and first two pages were all LED-bases, which makes sense, since those are all design elements (sometimes of better, sometimes worse designs) where LED gives lot's of freedom. Looking for ceiling lights gives a few classic connectors, but also lots of LED. (This might be accelerated since I'm in EU, which banned classic lightbulbs for energy reasons ... over alternatives which are a waste issue)

dredmorbius 8y ago

Surely you mean the QWERTZ layout.

keyle 8y ago
I think he meant QWERTY yeah... Maybe not aware of the reach of AZERTY in the world, and other keyboards.
- imron 8y ago
  I think you missed the fact that the person you are replying to uses a German keyboard.

dredmorbius 8y ago

Canons of page construction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of_page_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of_page_construction

coldseattle 8y ago

My piano has 92 keys. (Bosendorfer 225). 85 keys was pretty common until the 1920s. And the third pedal is relatively new. Some pianos (Fazioli) have 4 pedals.

keehun 8y ago
Does it go down to the low E?
- coldseattle 8y ago
  F

wilsonnb2 8y ago

You're just as likely to see a keyboard instrument with 25, 37, 49, 61, 73, or 76 keys as you are 88 these days. Pitch and mod wheels are also a staple of certain kinds of keyboard instruments. Aftertouch adds pressure sensors. The most advanced form of the keyboard interface at the moment would probably be the ROLI seaboard [1]. I do expect that the 88 key piano will be a staple of music for a long, long time, but I'm not sure I would call it's interface timeless seeing as it's still being modified and adapted to this day. [1] https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SeaboardG-61--roli-seaboard-grand-stage https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SeaboardG-61--roli-s...

slaymaker1907 8y ago
I think the principle is still correct considering how much the basic keyboard interface has remained the same.
jacquesm 8y ago
And yet, some random composer or musician from 100's of years ago (Say, one F. Chopin or J.S. Bach) transported to today would have absolutely no problem recognizing and using the instrument.
- wilsonnb2 8y ago
  That's also true. The interface is in fact much older than the piano, having first been used on harpsichords, clavichords, and (I think) pipe organs. If I'm not mistaken, the black+white keyboard we use today was invented around the 1400's. The piano itself dates back only to the 1700's. I can see the argument for the keyboard being a timeless UI because it's lasted mostly unchanged for about 600 years now. I can also see the argument that 600 years isn't that long in the scheme of musical instruments. We've found ancient flutes from at least 30,000 years ago. The lyre, popular in ancient Greece, is not that different from a modern harp. Lutes are thought to have been present in Mesopotamia around 3000 BC. Site note - I was surprised to learn that Bach lived before the piano became popular and apparently did not endorse the instrument until a few years before his death [1]. He would be familiar with the interface from earlier instruments, though. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano#Early_fortepiano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano#Early_fortepiano