9 ms·

Extrinsic and intrinsic motivation

80 points by aytekin 8y ago

ak39 8y ago
I agree with this. I’ve spent just as much time researching productivity as being productive some times. And I agree, we don’t fail on the motivation part but on inability to create environments, habits and schedules that allow for distraction-free productivity. But I always failed to maintain longer than a week’s worth of concentrated productive habit. Why? I have a theory: you can’t maintain rigid schedules and habits if you have family too. No chance of choosing focus areas and ignoring a sick child and sleepless nights, family emergencies and soul-sapping homework assistance. Family is my productivity enemy. But I love my family so I don’t sweat lack of productivity that much. Anymore. But yeah, motivation is not the answer. Fully agreed.
- j45 8y ago
  Some things like family can make us well rounded too, which in turn help us focus on the right things while st the keyboard. Have you had any luck with early morning productivity?
- extralego 8y ago
  Having never had a family, it really sounds impossible. I’m sure it’s rewarding. A vacation to Mars would be rewarding too, but it also sounds impossible.
- everdev 8y ago
  Machines are very productive. Humans don't always need to be. Or, if you expand your definition of productivity to include raising happy children then it sounds like you're extremely productive.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Why? I have a theory: you can’t maintain rigid schedules and habits if you have family too. Haven't millions of people -- and lots of famous productive writers, and such, done exactly that?
  - socceroos 8y ago
    And to varying degrees the detriment of their family.
- hevi_jos 8y ago
  You train your family, like you train your dog. If you are working on a hard problem and you dog comes with the leash on her mouth, you can do what the dog wants or do what you need to do. Your dog will have to wait. Non negotiable. if you negotiate and are not consistent, you are in trouble. Your dog needs to know that she is going to go outside, but when you say so. Dogs understand it very well. If it is a rigid schedule it works much better, it is not arbitrary. If you are working on a hard problem and your son or daughter interrupts you, it is your job to make it clear to them that they can't interrupt you unless it is important. They need to know you will spend time with them, on a consistent basis. People understand it very well if you are an adult capable of saying "no". Rigid schedules work much better. I believe you are confused. You can be disciplined and love your family. Sick child? Not the end of the world, it looks like it for first time parents. Homework assistance? You are not loving your children if you do their homework for them.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > But I always failed to maintain longer than a week’s worth of concentrated productive habit. Why? I have a theory: you can’t maintain rigid schedules and habits if you have family too. Counterpoint: I too fail to maintain a concentrated, productive habit for longer than ~a week. I do not have kids (yet) now, and I've also been failing at it when living alone. I was good at cutting out the distracting presence of other people, too, and it didn't help. I conclude that, at least for me, it's not about other people. There's something within me that prevents me from sticking to a habit I try to force on myself.
  - mirceal 8y ago
    I think the point was that a family => you cannot maintain schedules/habits. If you cannot maintain schedules/habits that may be related to the presence of a family
j45 8y ago
Building discipline is a master, root skill to learn that unlocks everything else. Breaking down any task into small steps has always helped me get going on things that seem to be a little tough to start. This has been way more productive than telling myself to do something for just 5 minutes, and often see myself continue. Discipline is learning to do what needs to be done regardless of how we feel. This creates more results than chasing motivation. Anything we perceive we are motivated or passionate about always has things we don't want to do attached to it. If anything, motivation might be like taking a shower every day. Forget to shower and any effect quickly dissipates. Motivation is finite like our attention and willpower.
- matwood 8y ago
  > Discipline is learning to do what needs to be done regardless of how we feel. This creates more results than chasing motivation. This 100x. Discipline is the goal. To paraphrase Jocko Wilink's podcast and book, "discipline equals freedom". Want to get up early, set an alarm and get up. Want to get in shape, go to the gym starting right now. When I recognize I'm procrastinating on something that needs to get done, I immediately attack it and get it done.
  - j45 8y ago
    "Discipline is freedom" is so true. Gotta play the game by the rules till we can set our own. It's strange though, we are raised to think discipline is bad, but everyone with financial, physical, dietary, academic, professional discipline often ends up being successful in many cases.
- lylecubed 8y ago
  Do you have any suggestions or tips on how to build up your Discipline?
  - fuzzfactor 8y ago
    "Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end" . . . RFripp
grecht 8y ago
The title's a bit clickbaity. "No such thing as motivation", and he goes on to explain two different types of motivation and sums it up with "do x and y and your motivation will grow". Also, I'm missing a golden thread in this post. It reads like a few half-baked thoughts to promote his company. I do agree with his recap though.
- imron 8y ago
  Exactly! He's absolutely spot on that habits are better than motivation for getting things done, but it's bizarre to have a title claiming there's no such thing as motivation, and then have several sections in the article talking about and defining what motivation is.
  - PakG1 8y ago
    It's not bizarre. Unfortunately, clickbait is good for business.
- sctb 8y ago
  Thanks, we've updated the title using (hopefully) representative language from the article. We can update it again if someone suggests a better one.
fnordsensei 8y ago
"Fuck motivation. it’s a fickle and and unreliable little dickfuck and isn’t worth your time. "Better to cultivate discipline than to rely on motivation. force yourself to do things. force yourself to get up out of bed and practice. Force yourself to work. Motivation is fleeting and it’s easy to rely on because it requires no concentrated effort to get. Motivation comes to you, and you don’t have to chase after it." "Discipline is reliable, motivation is fleeting. The question isn’t how to keep yourself motivated. It’s how to train yourself to work without it." —Theangryviolinist (probably)
koolhead17 8y ago
Reminds me of Scott Adams, System vs Passion.
cirgue 8y ago
Motivation is absolutely a skill that can be mastered. Being motivated to get up and run at 6:00 am is not telling yourself that you have to, it’s learning how to want to do it. Same thing with anything else. You have to learn how to connect the desire for some end state (getting the project completed, getting a faster mile time, etc) with the present. Habits are great, but excercising the capacity to want to make shit happen outside of your normal routine is also a skill worth developing.
- matwood 8y ago
  I think linking it to wanting can be problematic when people are trying to start. I get up every single day at 6am and go straight to the gym. To say I want to do this makes it sound like I have some insight, I'm crazy or I'm a 'morning' person. None of those are true. The alarm goes off, and I get up. There is no want or motivation in that moment, it is only discipline. I do it because working out every day improves my physical and mental health. My cognition is better. Starting each day off doing something I don't really want to do (getting up early), sets the tone of the day to one of getting the things done that need to get done. > You have to learn how to connect the desire for some end state (getting the project completed, getting a faster mile time, etc) with the present. IME, this is useful when deciding you want to make a change, but not something that is front and center when the alarm goes off early in the morning ;)
purplezooey 8y ago
This don't make no sense. You still got to be motivated to do the routine that has supposedly removed motivation.
- elboru 8y ago
  The title is misleading, if you read the article the author doesn't try to convince us that motivation doesn't exist, but that motivation is not necessary to get things done.
- coldtea 8y ago
  If you constraint motivation to mean "absolutely anything that makes you do something" then yes, it doesn't make sense. You still need to convince yourself to send a signal from your brain to do something, and one can say that that requires "motivation" too. But that's not how most people use the term motivation, or whine about "not having motivation" mean. The whole point of the distinction in the post is between waiting to feel motivated (as in "to positively look forward/like/inspired to do the thing") vs just doing it, not giving a shit for how you feel. As a crude example: a writer could wait until they feel "motivated" to sit down and write. Another could just set a schedule that has him sitting down every weekday 9-5, and writing something, anything, whether they feel motivated or not. The second we usually don't call "motivation", just discipline.
your-nanny 8y ago
all the clickbait titles on medium. I've mostly stopped bothering to read them
dyarosla 8y ago
Just want to point out that there is research that suggests there’s no clear-cut extrinsic/intrinsic designation and that motivation generally lies on a spectrum between these two types (Ryan and Deci). Moreover, finding ways to move yourself along the spectrum towards the intrinsic end allows for more effective output.
therisingegg 8y ago
I work all hours for a startup, and I enjoy my work, but when my boss gives us corporate "110%" talk, I want to resign
sixhobbits 8y ago
I read Drive by Daniel Pink (referenced in the article) and Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. They both make very interesting cases again current thoughts and practices surrounding motivation, especially regarding how rewards (in any form) often have the exact opposite effect of their intention. I wrote some more about this recently here [0] [0] https://www.codementor.io/garethdwyer/enter-the-zone-fight-imposter-syndrome-and-unlock-intrinsic-motivation-kjpbpe5a5 https://www.codementor.io/garethdwyer/enter-the-zone-fight-i...
MichaelBosworth 8y ago
If you're doing something shitty with your life, this kind of thinking is a good way to continue doing it well. I doubt that's a good thing, net, unless you really truly don't have any options.

80 points by aytekin 8y ago

ak39 8y ago

I agree with this. I’ve spent just as much time researching productivity as being productive some times. And I agree, we don’t fail on the motivation part but on inability to create environments, habits and schedules that allow for distraction-free productivity. But I always failed to maintain longer than a week’s worth of concentrated productive habit. Why? I have a theory: you can’t maintain rigid schedules and habits if you have family too. No chance of choosing focus areas and ignoring a sick child and sleepless nights, family emergencies and soul-sapping homework assistance. Family is my productivity enemy. But I love my family so I don’t sweat lack of productivity that much. Anymore. But yeah, motivation is not the answer. Fully agreed.

j45 8y ago
Some things like family can make us well rounded too, which in turn help us focus on the right things while st the keyboard. Have you had any luck with early morning productivity?
extralego 8y ago
Having never had a family, it really sounds impossible. I’m sure it’s rewarding. A vacation to Mars would be rewarding too, but it also sounds impossible.
everdev 8y ago
Machines are very productive. Humans don't always need to be. Or, if you expand your definition of productivity to include raising happy children then it sounds like you're extremely productive.
coldtea 8y ago
>Why? I have a theory: you can’t maintain rigid schedules and habits if you have family too. Haven't millions of people -- and lots of famous productive writers, and such, done exactly that?
- socceroos 8y ago
  And to varying degrees the detriment of their family.
hevi_jos 8y ago
You train your family, like you train your dog. If you are working on a hard problem and you dog comes with the leash on her mouth, you can do what the dog wants or do what you need to do. Your dog will have to wait. Non negotiable. if you negotiate and are not consistent, you are in trouble. Your dog needs to know that she is going to go outside, but when you say so. Dogs understand it very well. If it is a rigid schedule it works much better, it is not arbitrary. If you are working on a hard problem and your son or daughter interrupts you, it is your job to make it clear to them that they can't interrupt you unless it is important. They need to know you will spend time with them, on a consistent basis. People understand it very well if you are an adult capable of saying "no". Rigid schedules work much better. I believe you are confused. You can be disciplined and love your family. Sick child? Not the end of the world, it looks like it for first time parents. Homework assistance? You are not loving your children if you do their homework for them.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> But I always failed to maintain longer than a week’s worth of concentrated productive habit. Why? I have a theory: you can’t maintain rigid schedules and habits if you have family too. Counterpoint: I too fail to maintain a concentrated, productive habit for longer than ~a week. I do not have kids (yet) now, and I've also been failing at it when living alone. I was good at cutting out the distracting presence of other people, too, and it didn't help. I conclude that, at least for me, it's not about other people. There's something within me that prevents me from sticking to a habit I try to force on myself.
- mirceal 8y ago
  I think the point was that a family => you cannot maintain schedules/habits. If you cannot maintain schedules/habits that may be related to the presence of a family

j45 8y ago

Building discipline is a master, root skill to learn that unlocks everything else. Breaking down any task into small steps has always helped me get going on things that seem to be a little tough to start. This has been way more productive than telling myself to do something for just 5 minutes, and often see myself continue. Discipline is learning to do what needs to be done regardless of how we feel. This creates more results than chasing motivation. Anything we perceive we are motivated or passionate about always has things we don't want to do attached to it. If anything, motivation might be like taking a shower every day. Forget to shower and any effect quickly dissipates. Motivation is finite like our attention and willpower.

matwood 8y ago
> Discipline is learning to do what needs to be done regardless of how we feel. This creates more results than chasing motivation. This 100x. Discipline is the goal. To paraphrase Jocko Wilink's podcast and book, "discipline equals freedom". Want to get up early, set an alarm and get up. Want to get in shape, go to the gym starting right now. When I recognize I'm procrastinating on something that needs to get done, I immediately attack it and get it done.
- j45 8y ago
  "Discipline is freedom" is so true. Gotta play the game by the rules till we can set our own. It's strange though, we are raised to think discipline is bad, but everyone with financial, physical, dietary, academic, professional discipline often ends up being successful in many cases.
lylecubed 8y ago
Do you have any suggestions or tips on how to build up your Discipline?
- fuzzfactor 8y ago
  "Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end" . . . RFripp

grecht 8y ago

The title's a bit clickbaity. "No such thing as motivation", and he goes on to explain two different types of motivation and sums it up with "do x and y and your motivation will grow". Also, I'm missing a golden thread in this post. It reads like a few half-baked thoughts to promote his company. I do agree with his recap though.

imron 8y ago
Exactly! He's absolutely spot on that habits are better than motivation for getting things done, but it's bizarre to have a title claiming there's no such thing as motivation, and then have several sections in the article talking about and defining what motivation is.
- PakG1 8y ago
  It's not bizarre. Unfortunately, clickbait is good for business.
sctb 8y ago
Thanks, we've updated the title using (hopefully) representative language from the article. We can update it again if someone suggests a better one.

fnordsensei 8y ago

"Fuck motivation. it’s a fickle and and unreliable little dickfuck and isn’t worth your time. "Better to cultivate discipline than to rely on motivation. force yourself to do things. force yourself to get up out of bed and practice. Force yourself to work. Motivation is fleeting and it’s easy to rely on because it requires no concentrated effort to get. Motivation comes to you, and you don’t have to chase after it." "Discipline is reliable, motivation is fleeting. The question isn’t how to keep yourself motivated. It’s how to train yourself to work without it." —Theangryviolinist (probably)

koolhead17 8y ago

Reminds me of Scott Adams, System vs Passion.

cirgue 8y ago

Motivation is absolutely a skill that can be mastered. Being motivated to get up and run at 6:00 am is not telling yourself that you have to, it’s learning how to want to do it. Same thing with anything else. You have to learn how to connect the desire for some end state (getting the project completed, getting a faster mile time, etc) with the present. Habits are great, but excercising the capacity to want to make shit happen outside of your normal routine is also a skill worth developing.

matwood 8y ago
I think linking it to wanting can be problematic when people are trying to start. I get up every single day at 6am and go straight to the gym. To say I want to do this makes it sound like I have some insight, I'm crazy or I'm a 'morning' person. None of those are true. The alarm goes off, and I get up. There is no want or motivation in that moment, it is only discipline. I do it because working out every day improves my physical and mental health. My cognition is better. Starting each day off doing something I don't really want to do (getting up early), sets the tone of the day to one of getting the things done that need to get done. > You have to learn how to connect the desire for some end state (getting the project completed, getting a faster mile time, etc) with the present. IME, this is useful when deciding you want to make a change, but not something that is front and center when the alarm goes off early in the morning ;)

purplezooey 8y ago

This don't make no sense. You still got to be motivated to do the routine that has supposedly removed motivation.

elboru 8y ago
The title is misleading, if you read the article the author doesn't try to convince us that motivation doesn't exist, but that motivation is not necessary to get things done.
coldtea 8y ago
If you constraint motivation to mean "absolutely anything that makes you do something" then yes, it doesn't make sense. You still need to convince yourself to send a signal from your brain to do something, and one can say that that requires "motivation" too. But that's not how most people use the term motivation, or whine about "not having motivation" mean. The whole point of the distinction in the post is between waiting to feel motivated (as in "to positively look forward/like/inspired to do the thing") vs just doing it, not giving a shit for how you feel. As a crude example: a writer could wait until they feel "motivated" to sit down and write. Another could just set a schedule that has him sitting down every weekday 9-5, and writing something, anything, whether they feel motivated or not. The second we usually don't call "motivation", just discipline.

your-nanny 8y ago

all the clickbait titles on medium. I've mostly stopped bothering to read them

dyarosla 8y ago

Just want to point out that there is research that suggests there’s no clear-cut extrinsic/intrinsic designation and that motivation generally lies on a spectrum between these two types (Ryan and Deci). Moreover, finding ways to move yourself along the spectrum towards the intrinsic end allows for more effective output.

therisingegg 8y ago

I work all hours for a startup, and I enjoy my work, but when my boss gives us corporate "110%" talk, I want to resign

sixhobbits 8y ago

I read Drive by Daniel Pink (referenced in the article) and Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn. They both make very interesting cases again current thoughts and practices surrounding motivation, especially regarding how rewards (in any form) often have the exact opposite effect of their intention. I wrote some more about this recently here [0] [0] https://www.codementor.io/garethdwyer/enter-the-zone-fight-imposter-syndrome-and-unlock-intrinsic-motivation-kjpbpe5a5 https://www.codementor.io/garethdwyer/enter-the-zone-fight-i...

MichaelBosworth 8y ago

If you're doing something shitty with your life, this kind of thinking is a good way to continue doing it well. I doubt that's a good thing, net, unless you really truly don't have any options.