4 ms·

As a German this rather doesn't make any sense to me. ICANN is not allowed to offer the whois service, but I have to publish my full address on my website accor

by cJ0th 8y ago

As a German this rather doesn't make any sense to me. ICANN is not allowed to offer the whois service, but I have to publish my full address on my website according to German law. How can this be?

namibj 8y ago
ICANN is relevant for email-only.
catalin_dev 8y ago
If you're offering a service, then yes, you have to do that.
- cJ0th 8y ago
  Last time I checked, I found out that you're providing a commercial service if you put a button for paypal donations on your website. I don't know whether this is how things are today but it lead me to believe that it is not so simple to decide whether or not you do need an Impressum.
pjc50 8y ago
https://www.rockit-internet.de/en/what-is-an-impressum/ https://www.rockit-internet.de/en/what-is-an-impressum/ ? Ah, the complicated boundary between "commercial" and "personal" ..
tscs37 8y ago
Not all EU countries require that or have different rules around it (in germany only business-like websites require the imprint)
foepys 8y ago
You only need to put an email address on your personal websites. If you choose to do business (which includes showing ads), you will need your full contact information on there.
- teamhappy 8y ago
  > You only need to put an email address on your personal websites. You don't have to publish any contact information on non-commercial websites.
  - foepys 8y ago
    You should do it anyways. If somebody can only reach you through lawyers, you will only get contacted through lawyers. This generates costs which somebody will have to pay, which might be you in the end.
usr1106 8y ago
> but I have to publish my full address on my website according to German law. The E-mail address does not need to be your personal address, Lufthansa uses impressum_de@lufthansa.com and I don't see a reason why this would not be acceptable. The postal address does not need to be your personal address, a business address is fine. Well, if you are a 1 person business run from home I am not sure. Go to court and have it tested up to the constitutional court, why Carsten Spohr (CEO of Lufthansa) gets better data protection than you do. Yes, your real name has to be on a business web site. That's obviously the price to pay to run a business. As a potential customer wasting my money on fake service or otherwise suffering from a breach of contract, I think this is a good thing.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
kelnage 8y ago
Because Governments can make laws but ICANN can’t? (GDPR explicitly exempts personal data that is legally required to be disclosed from protection) Edit: actually after a bit more thought, it’s more nuanced than my somewhat glib response lets on (since there’s also an exemption for contractual obligations). The answer is likely that a) the law hasn’t been tested in the courts under GDPR and/or b) the Government requirement has the additional test of providing a service, which may alleviate the privacy cost sufficiently.
kuschku 8y ago
Doesn't have to be your actual address, just one where you can receive mail. Get a Postfach for a few euros a year, put it on there, and be done.
- tscs37 8y ago
  A postal box/postfach is not sufficient and that will definitely earn you a C&D. Don't do that. (21. Juli 2016, Az. 1 HK O 168/16 for reference). The imprint requires an address that permits receiving legal notices (ladungsfähig), ie, an Address where you as a person can be found.
  - kuschku 8y ago
    That's relatively recent then, but annoying. In that case, shouldn't the trick via a UG (Haftungsbeschränkt) still work?
    - tscs37 8y ago
      Well, even an UG (Hb) needs a business address which you will have to put in the imprint and to my knowledge you can't put a PO box as business address in the register.
YouAreGreat 8y ago
> I have to publish my full address on my website according to German law. Wherever there's potential for legal conflict, there's obviously a need to be able to find out who to sue. Same issue that worries the intellectual property rights lobbyists behind ICANN. > As a German Germany, additionally, is keen on knowing who to prosecute over free speech. Probably now an indispensable democracy management tool after having opted to give up on the "German" part of Germany in 2015, I don't see this going away any time soon.
- m-localhost 8y ago
  which case do you refer to about prosecution over free speech?
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Stuff about Nazis, I bet. Saying "free speech" was a claim, in that talk about Nazis is regulated in Germany.
onli 8y ago
I also think the effect of this is absurd, but the logic is sound and it is unlikely it will change. ICANN is illegally collecting protected data when requiring personal data for WHOIS without having any reason to do so, and that's the problem here, the conflict. But in the impressum, it is you that is releasing data, not someone collecting, and that is not conflicting with the DSGVO. Maybe it would be possible to argue that Germany is collection that data de facto, or that it is illegally enabling illegal data collection by third parties, and suing the country for that in an EU court. But that is not a winnable fight, they'd argue that they are not collecting the data, and that there is a valid reason to force the release of the data.
- diamondo25 8y ago
  Isn't ICANN collecting this data from registrars? I cannot recall myself entering my information on their website. I am sure a lot of people that buy domains don't even know about ICANN getting the data.
  - aeden 8y ago
    Registrars that are ICANN accredited are obligated to place all registrant data in escrow, so in effect, yes.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
microcolonel 8y ago
Because the law is poorly drafted, ill-conceived, and places the responsibility for protecting these data solely on third parties, who then do not have resources to determine if they are even allowed to do something that you already agreed to in another form (by providing the data, specifically for the purposes of publishing, as part of the necessary process of registering a domain).
gsich 8y ago
You are not forced to host a website despite having a domain.

by cJ0th 8y ago

As a German this rather doesn't make any sense to me. ICANN is not allowed to offer the whois service, but I have to publish my full address on my website according to German law. How can this be?

namibj 8y ago

ICANN is relevant for email-only.

catalin_dev 8y ago

If you're offering a service, then yes, you have to do that.

cJ0th 8y ago
Last time I checked, I found out that you're providing a commercial service if you put a button for paypal donations on your website. I don't know whether this is how things are today but it lead me to believe that it is not so simple to decide whether or not you do need an Impressum.

pjc50 8y ago

https://www.rockit-internet.de/en/what-is-an-impressum/ https://www.rockit-internet.de/en/what-is-an-impressum/ ? Ah, the complicated boundary between "commercial" and "personal" ..

tscs37 8y ago

Not all EU countries require that or have different rules around it (in germany only business-like websites require the imprint)

foepys 8y ago

You only need to put an email address on your personal websites. If you choose to do business (which includes showing ads), you will need your full contact information on there.

teamhappy 8y ago
> You only need to put an email address on your personal websites. You don't have to publish any contact information on non-commercial websites.
- foepys 8y ago
  You should do it anyways. If somebody can only reach you through lawyers, you will only get contacted through lawyers. This generates costs which somebody will have to pay, which might be you in the end.

usr1106 8y ago

> but I have to publish my full address on my website according to German law. The E-mail address does not need to be your personal address, Lufthansa uses impressum_de@lufthansa.com and I don't see a reason why this would not be acceptable. The postal address does not need to be your personal address, a business address is fine. Well, if you are a 1 person business run from home I am not sure. Go to court and have it tested up to the constitutional court, why Carsten Spohr (CEO of Lufthansa) gets better data protection than you do. Yes, your real name has to be on a business web site. That's obviously the price to pay to run a business. As a potential customer wasting my money on fake service or otherwise suffering from a breach of contract, I think this is a good thing.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

kelnage 8y ago

Because Governments can make laws but ICANN can’t? (GDPR explicitly exempts personal data that is legally required to be disclosed from protection) Edit: actually after a bit more thought, it’s more nuanced than my somewhat glib response lets on (since there’s also an exemption for contractual obligations). The answer is likely that a) the law hasn’t been tested in the courts under GDPR and/or b) the Government requirement has the additional test of providing a service, which may alleviate the privacy cost sufficiently.

kuschku 8y ago

Doesn't have to be your actual address, just one where you can receive mail. Get a Postfach for a few euros a year, put it on there, and be done.

tscs37 8y ago
A postal box/postfach is not sufficient and that will definitely earn you a C&D. Don't do that. (21. Juli 2016, Az. 1 HK O 168/16 for reference). The imprint requires an address that permits receiving legal notices (ladungsfähig), ie, an Address where you as a person can be found.
- kuschku 8y ago
  That's relatively recent then, but annoying. In that case, shouldn't the trick via a UG (Haftungsbeschränkt) still work?
  - tscs37 8y ago
    Well, even an UG (Hb) needs a business address which you will have to put in the imprint and to my knowledge you can't put a PO box as business address in the register.

YouAreGreat 8y ago

> I have to publish my full address on my website according to German law. Wherever there's potential for legal conflict, there's obviously a need to be able to find out who to sue. Same issue that worries the intellectual property rights lobbyists behind ICANN. > As a German Germany, additionally, is keen on knowing who to prosecute over free speech. Probably now an indispensable democracy management tool after having opted to give up on the "German" part of Germany in 2015, I don't see this going away any time soon.

m-localhost 8y ago
which case do you refer to about prosecution over free speech?
- mirimir 8y ago
  Stuff about Nazis, I bet. Saying "free speech" was a claim, in that talk about Nazis is regulated in Germany.

onli 8y ago

I also think the effect of this is absurd, but the logic is sound and it is unlikely it will change. ICANN is illegally collecting protected data when requiring personal data for WHOIS without having any reason to do so, and that's the problem here, the conflict. But in the impressum, it is you that is releasing data, not someone collecting, and that is not conflicting with the DSGVO. Maybe it would be possible to argue that Germany is collection that data de facto, or that it is illegally enabling illegal data collection by third parties, and suing the country for that in an EU court. But that is not a winnable fight, they'd argue that they are not collecting the data, and that there is a valid reason to force the release of the data.

diamondo25 8y ago
Isn't ICANN collecting this data from registrars? I cannot recall myself entering my information on their website. I am sure a lot of people that buy domains don't even know about ICANN getting the data.
- aeden 8y ago
  Registrars that are ICANN accredited are obligated to place all registrant data in escrow, so in effect, yes.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

microcolonel 8y ago

Because the law is poorly drafted, ill-conceived, and places the responsibility for protecting these data solely on third parties, who then do not have resources to determine if they are even allowed to do something that you already agreed to in another form (by providing the data, specifically for the purposes of publishing, as part of the necessary process of registering a domain).

gsich 8y ago

You are not forced to host a website despite having a domain.