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SpaceX is working on a kid-size submarine to extract those boys in Thailand
- spondyl 8y agoContext from the article on who "those boys" are: 12 young soccer players and their coach who’ve been trapped in a cave in Thailand since entering it June 23rd, after which they became trapped by rising floodwaters.
- evanm 8y agoI'm........skeptical about all of this. Kid-sized sub built from rocket parts in a matter of hours?
- lifeformed 8y agoIt's mostly just an inflated kevlar bag with some valves.
- trevyn 8y agoWelding. See: Junkyard Wars.
- pooya13 8y agoOf course an "emergency cave submarine pod" built to specs would have been ideal but emergency situations require emergency measures.
- rich-and-poor 8y agoIt's easy to build one of something. Especially when the engineers building on of something usually build several of 1,500,000kg rockets.
- pbw 8y agoWhether this has a chance of working depends on the exact diameter of the narrow portions of the submerged route. My impression is that they were very narrow, perhaps too small for a rigid container containing a human?
- ourmandave 8y agoYes, the divers have to unstrap their air tank and swim through holding it in front of them.
- Robotbeat 8y agoIndeed. The "submarine" is more like a duffel bag with air tanks and weights. It isn't rigid. I think it might work. It helps that they are very young and small and athletic build (and now, unfortunately, really skinny due to not eating much food for the last couple weeks).
- walrus01 8y agoI am thinking of the obviously watertight and airtight flexible, yet very tough material used for collapsible diesel fuel bladders... Fitted out with an air tank supply and ballast weight mounting positions? https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+fuel+bladder&num=100&client=ubuntu&hs=KOh&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy4OH3to7cAhWOITQIHTChBycQ_AUICygC&biw=1473&bih=951#imgrc=_ https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+fuel+bladder&num=100&...
- maxerickson 8y agoAccording to the Time article someone linked they are made of the polyurethane used to make inflatable river rafts and the like.
- Someone 8y agoThe “skinny” is fortunate now, isn’t it? It makes it easier to guide them through tight passages.
- Splines 8y agoThis is the best map I could find (linked off wikipedia): https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/146FC/production/_102380738_thai_cave_detailed_mapv2_976-nc.png https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/146FC/production... I recall seeing one of a vertical cross section so you can see where the kids would need to go into the "submarine", but I can't find it again nor do I know how accurate that map is. In any case, the above map has a few cutaways showing you the cross section size of the tunnel to human scale.
- slimsag 8y agoFor those confused by this: What they are making is less of a "submarine" in the mechanized sense, and more of an enclosed, air-tight & weighted chamber which two divers can tow between them (one diver in front, one behind) with a kid inside. So about the size of an adult body, hence being able to fit through the narrow caves.
- everdev 8y agoIf the passages are narrow, why is an inflatable pod a preferred solution to a face mask? I'd imagine it would be at risk of puncture.
- coatmatter 8y agoThere's less oxygen available with a face mask. It should also be noted that NASA has an inflatable module that's being tested against space, but I don't know if there's any similarity here.
- nradov 8y agoThere is no less oxygen available with a face mask. The concern with full face masks is that they contain more dead space which can lead to dangerous CO2 accumulation. Divers who use full face masks or hard helmets often turn on at least a little free flow gas to supplement the demand valve regulator and keep their CO2 levels down.
- richev 8y agoFull face diving masks are designed to have an air flow that helps minimize CO2 buildup[0]. The greater concern is that they might leak due to not fitting properly, and/or the user might panic and pull the mask off while underwater. [0] http://www.opstechnologies.com/products/scuba/full-face.html http://www.opstechnologies.com/products/scuba/full-face.html
- sandworm101 8y agoThere are so many issues with either a pod or a solid tube. The biggest one is buoyancy. If it is full of air it will need to be weighted, and have air added/removed to adjust for pressure changes with depth. But imagine if the kid "turns turtle". Any brief head-down orientation will result in the fabric collapsing around the kid's head as the air rushes up to his feet. Correcting this requires forcefully turning the kid around to keep his head up. This is one (of many) reasons why commercial divers in dry suits use solid helmets. It isn't an issue for wetsuits. I'd rather slap a full helmet on the kid and tie him up into a bundle. It won't be pretty but does solve the buoyancy issues. I'm sure they are also considering drugging the kids to reduce the risk of panic attacks. Here is the nasa device, the personal rescue enclosure: http://www.astronautix.com/r/rescueball.html http://www.astronautix.com/r/rescueball.html (It wouldn't work. Wrong shape and no buoyancy control.)
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- hyperpallium 8y agoAlso, an inflated "bouncy castle" tunnel. http://abc.net.au/news/2018-07-06/elon-musk-sends-spacex-to-help-rescue-thai-soccer-team/9950934 http://abc.net.au/news/2018-07-06/elon-musk-sends-spacex-to-...
- garmaine 8y agoThat was a tweet and a pretty ridiculous one. These sorts of caves are famously full of razor sharp rock that would puncture such flimsy inflated underwater structures.
- chris_mc 8y agoI don't like Elon much (I think he's an ass to his employees), but he still sent engineers for free to Thailand and is donating materials that are probably not very cheap (rocket parts for the mini-sub thing). At least he's trying to help!
- coatmatter 8y agoHe's doing it for free? Where did you read that?
- TomMarius 8y agoHe is of course getting a lot of attention and it might be one of the reasons he is doing it, but he is definitely helping and he isn't receiving money, is he? I think attention is fair price to pay to Elon for his help.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- myrandomcomment 8y agoDid you even give the story a quick read?
- themagician 8y ago
- jv22222 8y agoOriginal Tweet: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015657378140704768 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1015657378140704768
- Animats 8y agoIf it fits, it might work.
- sschueller 8y agoThe kids would need to be in the bag for 6 hours. I don't see how that is any better than them going directly. Maybe Musk should send a giant pump to get that water out. Don't they have large pumps at space X to fill those rockets?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- nicolewhite 8y agoThe whole cave isn't flooded. They'd only be in the bag / submarine in the flooded parts.
- crooked-v 8y ago> I don't see how that is any better than them going directly. It means they don't need to keep themselves oriented in an underwater 3D maze while operating unfamiliar breathing equipment.
- jpindar 8y agoA dark murky underwater 3d maze at that, with a current.
- YZF 8y agoI'd imagine two or even four divers taking each kid in between them. I assume there's a line, so no one is navigating and the route is fully supplied with any additional air needed. People go on intro dives all the time where an instructor does everything. Obviously the element of the long and narrow passages makes things a lot more difficult but it's doable. You just take your time. This completely unknown new technology seems riskier to me... Full face dive masks take most of the "tricky" don't breath in through the nose out of the equation. I'm a sport diver. That said, there's always some people who "lose it" during a dive course or even newly certified divers. Though I've yet to hear of anyone who decides to stop breathing air and opt for water, usually they bolt to the top, which isn't an option here. That risk can be mitigated by doing "pool" dives right where the kid are and perhaps short stays in the adjacent cave areas. Maybe some relaxing music can be played as well... Another possibility is adding some "rest stop" by creating air pockets along the way.
- guard0g 8y agoThe pods already on their way via SpaceX http://www.times-standard.com/general-news/20180706/wing-inflatables-assisting-with-thai-soccer-team-rescue http://www.times-standard.com/general-news/20180706/wing-inf...
- wallflower 8y agoWing Inflatables is a partner for SpaceX. This is pretty smart as they had expertise in flotation devices. The general assumption that SpaceX was designing and manufacturing these out of SpaceX spacecraft material was wrong. In fact, they were probably en route via Elon's private jet around the time he started tweeting about them. > 14/ "What is interesting is, if you know #California at all, we are 350 miles north of #SanFrancisco in a little town, #Arcata. That is a little #riverrafting town. We manufacture inflatable recovery parts for #SpaceX". > 15/ "So we have a relationship. When Elon had an idea he asked our engineering team to get a hold of us. It was wonderful to see it all come through", says Branagh, Wing Inflatables' president and CEO. https://twitter.com/WendyDent/status/1015795955621191680 https://twitter.com/WendyDent/status/1015795955621191680 http://www.wing.com/ http://www.wing.com/
- Robotbeat 8y agoI think they may be sending some of the SpaceX material as part of the inflatable tunnel idea. It's a backup plan (to a backup plan) at this point.
- arkades 8y agoIt wasn’t a general assumption: he said as much in a tweet. “Got more great feedback from Thailand. Primary path is basically a tiny, kid-size submarine using the liquid oxygen transfer tube of Falcon rocket as hull. Light enough to be carried by 2 divers, small enough to get through narrow gaps. Extremely robust. — Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 7, 2018”
- wallflower 8y agoHmm, it appears that SpaceX designed their own escape pod, separate from the Wing Inflatables which were flown to Thailand. While it is clear they didn't finish it in time for the very time sensitive Thai cave rescue operation, they are testing it out in a pool. Video of it being tested: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016063173139427329 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016063173139427329
- MarketingJason 8y agoI'd imagine you'd have to sedate the passenger? That would be far too scary and long a trip to risk them panicking when there is nothing you can do.
- ars 8y agoI'm not sure it would be safe to sedate someone and then leave them in an inaccessible location for a few hours. Better to take a chance on ordering the boys to lie there and DON'T MOVE! Could also help to make them stay awake for a long time, then transport them - they'd likely fall asleep in the dark quiet.
- Someone 8y agoI doubt they would fall asleep, as the experience of being wrapped up likely would still produce plenty of adrenaline. And would it be quiet? I would expect sounds of air bubbles, breathing apparatus, scratching along rock in the tightest passages, etc. Nothing high-volume, but it would certainly be audible.
- SubiculumCode 8y agoI cannot fathom this as a publicity stunt. Instead it strikes me as kick-ass can-do attitude of the best kind.
- jazoom 8y agoI think the same but looking at all his very public "Tweeting" I can certainly understand if someone was to crticise. I'm not sure the tweeting has made his plans any more effective.
- sgc 8y agoIt all started when someone asked him for help via twitter. I am sure the back and forth he has done there is minimal compared to the unseen effort to get this far so fast.
- coatmatter 8y agoHis group hasn't been the first, nor second nor even third to be on the scene.
- sgc 8y agoWhatever. No need to hate on somebody for unrelated reasons.
- maxxxxx 8y agoI hope it's not an arrogant really-don't-understand-the-problem attitude. Tech people are very prone to think they know better.
- SubiculumCode 8y agoThat is possible; but then the guy on site can just say thanks but no thanks.
- westmeal 8y agoHell if they make it... I'm praying for them.
- ericcumbee 8y agoSounds kind of like what NASA came up with for moving astronauts from a damaged space shuttle to a rescue shuttle. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Rescue_Enclosure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Rescue_Enclosure
- orbital-decay 8y agoAlong with concepts like PARACONE or Langley Landers, it was one of the crazier space technologies though.
- falcolas 8y agoIIRC they've been talking about the potential of "packaging" up the individuals since they first found them. Packaging being giving them an air tank, face mask, and making them neutrally buoyant them so the experienced divers can push and pull them along the tunnels. This seems like the implementation of that plan?
- coatmatter 8y agoThe repeated stories so far have suggested that there's a passage that's too narrow for both a tank and person to fit through at the same time.
- falcolas 8y agoSo long as the professional divers have full control over the "package", it shouldn't be a deal breaking issue. Detach the tank, move them through separately, just as the divers themselves do. It's certainly not safe, as the loss of the recent diver has shown.
- xxxdarrenxxx 8y agoLittle is known about why he died. I see many people go full tryhard when a child is in danger, doing dumb stuff. I can see a scenario where he wanted to rush it, potentially cuttin corners, because of doom rainfall scenarios. This makes his death more a psych problem than a dive problem. Another is age/shape. I used to be a fine skater, did a trick I could do in my sleep at 14 at 30 and fell hard. These kind of coordinations need to be maintained and he was explicitly retired.
- guard0g 8y agoPods are onsite and rescue operation has started according to news conference #thailandcaverescue
- craftyguy 8y agoIt's somewhat interesting how much attention these kids have received, meanwhile how many kids have died worldwide from hunger, disease, and warfare since June 23rd? Probably a bit more than 12. I guess that's not as exciting to read about though.
- throwawayjava 8y agoShort term problems need short term solutions and benefit (from) short attention spans. Long term problems need long term solutions and benefit from longer attention spans. Your reminder to think about those problems is well taken. But, aside from heeding your reminder, I'm okay with this.
- mdorazio 8y agoI made a lot of family members really mad yesterday by saying exactly this. Then I looked up some stats. The numbers are a few years out of date, but UNICEF estimates that 29,000 children under the age of five die of preventable causes every day [1]. And those kids didn't do anything wrong to get themselves a death sentence. Now ask yourself how many of those kids could have been saved with the amount of money, manpower, and attention being devoted to the Thai soccer team. Stuff like this gets pretty sad if you think about it in utilitarian terms. [1] https://www.unicef.org/mdg/childmortality.html https://www.unicef.org/mdg/childmortality.html
- triviatise 8y agothe same goes for any social problem you help solve. People are quite upset about kids getting separated from parents at the border. Yet offer no help for the thousands of children that die every day. Every person decides what cause is important to them. The hypocrisy is when people who favor one cause judge those who arent interested in that cause.
- curiousgal 8y agoI am not fishing for drama but I want to speak my mind. On that note, the most blatant form of hypocrisy in my opinion is pro-"life" supporters whose main argument is "think of the children" yet they also ignore the thousands of children that die every day.
- Robotbeat 8y agoIt sounds like the rescue operation has begun. 5 thai navy seals and 13 foreign divers have entered the cave: https://twitter.com/gordoneaton/status/1015805529950650373 https://twitter.com/gordoneaton/status/1015805529950650373 https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-cave-rescue-operation-divers-trapped-boys-live?CMP=share_btn_tw https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-...
- geomark 8y agoYes. Thai TV is currently reporting that the extraction operation has begun. The stateless kid (forgot his name), the only English speaker, will be the first one to make the attempt. They expect/hope he will emerge around 9pm Thai time this evening, about four hours from now.
- geomark 8y agoThai news reporting that the first two boys are out of the cave. No report yet of their condition. Edit 1: News media being kept away so they will be light on details for the time being. 2: Chiang Rai health dept head says the two are being examined at the field hospital near the cave. 3: Timely updates in English here https://www.bbc.com/news/live/44755093 https://www.bbc.com/news/live/44755093
- glenneroo 8y agoOn your BBC link, they got 4 kids out, all in good health. Taking a break for the night: > We will be able to continue the rescue operation when we are ready to do so. We will be ready soon, because we will need to redo laying out all of the air tanks and all systems along the way again. We have used everything [in the set up] that we had today. The set up team will do their work again once they are ready. It'll be difficult to tell exactly when the next [evacuation] will start. But I guess it will be ready in the next 10-20 hours.'' 8 kids and the coach are still inside. Looks like they may not need any outside help after all.
- jpindar 8y agoI'm hearing news that that the rescue is about to begin, they aren't going to wait for any new equipment. "Rescue crews: the 12 boys + coach each have a dive mask connecting with an air line to their escort/diver. The diver has the oxygen tank/regulator. So, the boys are not SCUBAing, per se. Also, each boy will have physical contact with their rescuer throughout." https://twitter.com/DavidShuster/status/1015789259649937409 https://twitter.com/DavidShuster/status/1015789259649937409
- XorNot 8y ago11 hours minimum per boy for the trip though. Hopefully it all works but I'd hope the backup plan preparations are continuing.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoWowsers! I haven't been following this. Does anyone have any info on what the route is out of the cave? That's a hectic journey.
- foobarbazetc 8y agoThe actual operation has no mention of this stuff at all: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-cave-rescue-operation-divers-trapped-boys-live https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/08/thailand-... And the pre-planned operation is under way due to lower than expected rainfall making most of the journey walkable. So what’s what? Why are we talking about Elon or SpaceX at all?
- jpindar 8y agoAIUI the decision to have them swim out was only made a few hours ago.
- 8bitsrule 8y agoBecause 1. It's great idea? and 2. May be a lifesaver in many other use cases? and 3. Is a good example of tech used to help, not just take? and 4. Beats watching TV?
- txsh 8y agoBecause Musk pays people to come here and talk about these things.
- SpecialistEMT 8y agoHe doesnt need to pay. Has a legion of blind followers
- rich-and-poor 8y agoHopefully Elon Musk followers don't insult groups of people based on their shared passion, like you do.
- SpecialistEMT 8y agoIgnorance is worse than being an asshole
- sandworm101 8y agoWhat is Musk thinking? First the bouncy castle tube and now a solid-walled submarine? He really has no appreciation for the cave environment. Tight spots in caves aren't tubes. They are irregular twisty-turning CAVES. Some squeezes (the term of art for the narrow bits where you have to remove gear) are so tight that you cannot take a full breath. Any solid object more than a couple feet long will be stuck very quickly. Now imagine that in the dark, not seeing more than a few inches in front of your face. Then add a swift current constantly trying to separate you from your air supply. When a hardened cave diver calls something "gnarly" take it to mean a claustrophobic nightmare that would send 99% of us into a lethal panic attack. Worse yet, imagine this sub becoming wedged in a squeeze. Setting aside the terrified kid dying inside, the only way to or from the twelve others is now blocked. I'm a diver but no expert on caves. I've been in dry caves and have dove a couple lava tubes, but I would never tell proper cave divers how to do their thing. If I were the King I would airlift every possible drilling rig in Asia. I'd turn that mountain into a wiffle ball in the hopes that one breaks through, or at least add more places for pumps.
- rurban 8y agoAt least the pumps did work. Before I only saw two small 10cm waterhoses going out. Yesterday I saw a double size 30cm hose pumping water out in full speed. These 30cm made the difference I believe.
- iamgopal 8y agoYes pumping is the proper solution as long as they have drain point. Humans have mastered pumping.
- ncallaway 8y ago> now a solid-walled submarine? It's not a solid-walled submarine. http://www.times-standard.com/general-news/20180706/wing-inflatables-assisting-with-thai-soccer-team-rescue http://www.times-standard.com/general-news/20180706/wing-inf...
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- foobaw 8y agoIt looks like they're going in to rescue the kids based on the current conditions. I'm guessing this submarine solution could potentially be a back-up in case something goes wrong. I doubt it's a PR stunt - Elon doesn't care about PR (remember his April fools tweet).
- jhanschoo 8y ago> Elon doesn't care about PR From recollection, that does not seem true at all. All of Musk's initiatives have benefited from his intuitive ability for hip and technophilic branding. See the naming of "Tesla" and "The Boring Company". He also likes to frame his companies' activities in the context of techno-utopian contributions to civil society, and this is nothing new. Outside of the obvious main electric-cars mission of Tesla, they have also built a battery power reservoir in Australia as well as dabbled in solar panels. As SpaceX, sending a Tesla into space was great PR. As the Boring company, they sold overpriced flamethrowers as great PR to the technophile crowd. Whenever a safety incident regarding a Tesla car occurs, Tesla issues a heavy-handed, highly defensive piece spinning their cars to be among the safest, with a constant undertone of shifting all possible fault elsewhere. The April fools tweet sends a sort of "haters gonna be haters" message to his Tesla fans. So Musk is indeed highly aware of marketing and branding, and this proposal is highly consistent with Musk's branding and strategy. It has the Musk elements of proposals that 1) seem prima facie simple 2) seem prima facie feasible 3) solve a longstanding big or deep problem, that 4) the layman does not think has been seriously considered before as a solution to the problems it tries to solve, 5) where the problem is currently being addressed by a very different solution that seems technologically uninteresting or costly.
- coding123 8y agounless this is ready now it's not being used, they are apparently going to mask and dive with the children at this point
- grosjona 8y agoIt seems crazy, I can imagine the horror if the pod gets stuck between rocks while going through a narrow tunnel. The simplest solution is to give the children swimming and scuba diving lessons from inside the cave and then once a safe route has been established, the children can get to the exit one by one (accompanied by a professional diver) by swimming along a rope which leads to the exit.
- mjal 8y agoNot SpaceX, a partner company. While helping is admirable, if he actually wanted to help in a more reasonable timeframe/more humble way then there are better channels he could have used, this all seems like a publicity stunt to me.
- ablatner 8y agoOdds are he has been using other more official channels to communicate with the scene.
- mjal 8y agoI'd be surprised if he wasn't now - I meant in the first place.
- rottyguy 8y agoscientists tend to pursue these adventurists/esoteric opportunities to try and provide unique solutions that may have utility down the road.
- Walkman 8y agoIt might not have been his idea at first to help, I found this tweet: https://twitter.com/mabzmagz/status/1014251869760249856?s=21 https://twitter.com/mabzmagz/status/1014251869760249856?s=21
- unityByFreedom 8y agoChiang Rai governor: “i am the one who invited @SpaceX because my friend works there.” https://twitter.com/yayqe/status/1015287476284346368 https://twitter.com/yayqe/status/1015287476284346368 https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/06/thailand-cave-rescue-looming-rain-clouds-could-force-quick-rescue-decision-live https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/jul/06/thailand-...
- lossolo 8y agoThey already evacuated 6 boys without submarine.
- jacksmith21006 8y agoThey have started to take the boys out and so not in time. But also it looks like the opening is tiny in places. There is zero chance I would crawl through such a tiny hole even without the water. I would freak.