8 ms·

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax. Unsurprisingl

IDs are not issued automatically in the US; they take money and effort to acquire. Therefore as implemented in the US, voter IDs are a poll tax. Unsurprisingly, this makes voter ID a political issue: those who benefit from poll taxes support them, and those whose voters are suppressed by poll taxes oppose them.

mikejholly 8y ago
You also need to wear clothes and shoes into the polling station. Are those expenses considered poll taxes as well? Straw man, but requiring ID is not really a direct poll tax. I certainly don't feel like I'm being unreasonably taxed when I vote with my ID.
- slg 8y ago
  You are thinking of this as a person who already has a government issued ID. If you don't drive and don't travel internationally there isn't much in life that would require you go acquire a government issued ID. If the only reason you need the ID is to vote, many people who don't already have an ID won't vote.
  - mikejholly 8y ago
    This argument seems like grasping me to. How would one function in society at all without an ID? Opening a bank account, cashing a check, driving a car, visiting a doctor, taking a train or plane, going to court. These are all activities which require ID. Sure, there is a tiny fraction of people who can't engage in those activities. But how likely is it that those folks are going to be voting, anyhow? I found this video pretty funny while searching around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
    - erik_seaberg 8y ago
      Employers are legally required to check ID. Not sure about landlords or hotels but nearly all of them seem to.
      - coin 8y ago
        Employers are required to verify documents which shows legal status, some of which are IDs. However there combinations of documents on form I-9 which are not IDs.
    - tzs 8y ago
      http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/08/voter_id_laws_why_do_minorities_lack_id_to_show_at_the_polls_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
    - slg 8y ago
      An ID certainly makes those things easier, but a government issued photo ID is not actually required for any of them. Like I said in my original comment, the only things that absolutely require an ID are international travel and driving. If you do neither of those, then you might not have an ID.
      - Latteland 8y ago
        Based on ICE hassling poor people on buses, they'd like to check everyone's id on a bus.
    - pseudalopex 8y ago
      7% of US households don't have a bank account.[1] Many people live in walkable areas, carpool, or rely on transit. Visiting a doctor doesn't require ID. Taking a train or plane (or a bus) is easier with ID but possible without. [1] https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/ https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/
      - mikejholly 8y ago
        That's surprisingly high! Although I'd assume the total number of people have IDs is greater than the count of those who have bank accounts since there are multiple activities which require IDs (only one being opening a bank account).
        pseudalopex 8y ago
        You can even open a bank account without government-issued photo ID. It's just harder.
      - downandout 8y ago
        Visiting a doctor does take ID if you have insurance. Also, by federal law, picking up any prescriptions that a doctor writes requires ID, certainly at least for narcotic prescriptions.
        pseudalopex 8y ago
        Doctors' offices generally make some effort to verify the identity of anyone not paying up front. Some insist on scanning a government-issued photo ID. Others are more flexible. Regulations for dispensing controlled substances vary from state to state. As of 2013, only 24 states required pharmacists to verify identity.[1] Many of those regulations apply only in certain circumstances, don't specifically require government-issued photo ID, have fallback procedures, or allow the pharmacist to dispense the medication without ID if withholding it would harm the patient. Florida recently passed a law that says it's good enough if the pharmacist recognizes the patient.[2] [1] https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf [2] https://www.healthlawrx.com/2018/07/florida-imposes-new-id-requirements-for-pharmacist-dispensing-of-controlled-substances/ https://www.healthlawrx.com/2018/07/florida-imposes-new-id-r...
    - iamnotlarry 8y ago
      That's an amusing video. Well framed. But as to your idea about life without an ID... I routinely refuse to show my ID to bank tellers, doctor offices, trains, planes, etc. I avoid most activities the require ID. There is one obvious exception--I drive every day. I carry my ID with me at all times. But I refuse to show to somebody who is not writing me a traffic ticket. That refusal has not impeded my ability to conduct a normal life. FWIW, I am not opposed to voter ID. I am opposed to universal ID. My voter ID should not be required to open a bank account, or rent an apartment. It should be for one purpose. I recently tried to open a bank account. They asked for my SSN. I gave it to them so they could report taxable income to the IRS. They asked for my drivers license. I refused. They asked for my employment history. I refused. If they asked for my shoe size, I would refuse. Over-collection of personal data is a big problem right now. Most people facilitate it. I try to resist it. So far, it hasn't prevented me from voting.
    - eeeuo 8y ago
      So, the premise is that all Liberals think this way, right? It seems odd that Fox News keep returning to college campuses over and over and over to get quotes that are intended to represent the views of Liberals writ large. I mean, they're in New York City, wouldn't it be simpler to go outside their office and interview some adults with jobs? Trying to wrack my brain to figure out why they would keep talking to 18 year olds over and over again, hmm...
  - downandout 8y ago
    I’d love for you to explain how living life as an adult in the US without an ID is remotely close to possible for any reasonable length of time. Want a job? You need ID. Banks are obviosuly out, but so are prepaid reloadable cards. Live on cash only from an under-the-table job where you weren’t asked for ID? Fine, but where do you plan to live without ID? Even weekly motels require ID. The idea that a legal, eligible-to-vote US citizen is running around living life in 2018 without any form of ID is preposterous.
    - tzakrajs 8y ago
      No, what is preposterous is that you cant imagine people with no employment, no bank account, nor vehicle to drive living in the US. Those people have a right to vote even if you aren't impressed with their quality of living.
      - downandout 8y ago
        ...living in the US. Those people have a right to vote Living in the US and having the right to vote are not the same thing. Illegal aliens, temporary and permanent residents, and other people of varying status live in the US but cannot legally vote, at least in federal elections.
        rectang 8y ago
        There are "people with no employment, no bank account, nor vehicle to drive living in the US" who are U.S. citizens. Disenfranchising them is unamerican.
        tzakrajs 8y ago
        Right, but I was speaking about citizens. Nice deflection. People on HN are usually great but many seem to argue in bad faith and it makes me want to quit this platform (in addition to the others).
        downandout 8y ago
- ggggtez 8y ago
  If you choose not to vote, you save that money and it effects your life in no direct way. You can't choose not to wear clothes and still expect to live a normal life. The point is if the ID was free, it would be different, because you'd have no incentive to not have one.
- flyingcircus3 8y ago
  You've conflated your feelings with the government's propensity to provide protection for all Americans. Voting is a right, unlike driving an automobile, which is a privilege. Rights have no prerequisites to enjoy them, unlike privileges. We all agree that many people do have the means to acquire government IDs. Just like all goods and services, the amount of money required to purchase an ID might be a pittance to you, but a significant expense to someone else. This, coupled with what I assume is a track record of not being disenfranchised, might explain why you have no frame of reference from which to appreciate why its a poll tax.
  - mikejholly 8y ago
    Let me rephrase: the majority of people in my society would _agree_ that requiring an ID card to vote is reasonable. That is true based on an observation of the status quo. Voting is also a right in Canada. In the US, being an imprisoned felon erases your right to vote. Hence, voting is not a God given grant as you claim. You're also making an ignorant generalization about my background. I was brought up by a single, disabled mother. We lived below the poverty line for the majority of my childhood. You'd do well to discard your arrogant approach.
    - ppseafield 8y ago
      > the majority of people in my society would _agree_ that requiring an ID card to vote is reasonable On the surface it seems like a reasonable requirement, but it disenfranchises people for little to no return. In-person voter fraud is difficult to do in any meaningful amounts. Estimates show the amount is negligible compared to the kind of disenfranchisement voting restrictions cause. Additionally there have been a lot of bullshit practices put up to block people from voting: literary test + grandfather clause, poll tax, corporate thugs watching you vote, white supremacists keeping black people out of polling stations, limiting the quantities of polling stations, resisting early voting, using horribly insecure (Windows XP SP1) voting machines, voter records getting purged. Voting is a right, and it's supposed to be the foundation of our democratic republic. ID costs money, has to be renewed, and is harder to get than it used to be. (Thanks, DHS.) What if you're older, and the building that kept your birth certificate burned down? Or just lost it? This is not uncommon. Do you just not get to vote?
- Terr_ 8y ago
  Well, your average clothes-or-shoes store isn't sited, controlled, and operated by a partisan political party trying to actively sabotage certain groups to prevent them from voting. The problem is on the ID-provisioning side.
squirrelicus 8y ago
I think it would be reasonable to create a national ID card system and fund it through taxes. It could replace driver licenses and social security cards. I do not know why it would be unreasonable to require such a card for voting. It could also serve as a PKI system with the govt acting as a CA (i.e. manage issuance and revocation). There are non zero benefits. And this doesn't have to operate like a poll tax. I don't understand why this isn't already a thing. Seems obvious.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > I don't understand why this isn't already a thing. Seems obvious. Because people don't want yet another mandatory way to be tracked by the government. It is especially opposed by those here illegally, their supporters, and others historically disenfranchised by more and more centralized requirements. Not everyone has driver's licenses or ssn cards. There are non-zero problems so what should be obvious is why some oppose even if you don't.
  - squirrelicus 8y ago
    I've heard, mostly from libertarian small government types, that I should fear government tracking. I'm not sure exactly why. I'm already tracked by IP and cell towers and using my credit card. And I'm not sure what the government is going to nail me with. I'm not even making an argument about "I'm not doing anything wrong, so why should I fear the machine?" I have assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition purchased with my credit card. There's a non zero risk that the disarmament Inquisition might use my credit card to seize my property or worse. But the risk is... Quite vanishingly small. And I think it's not unreasonable to suggest the risk is vanishingly smaller for ID cards. Additionally, I'm completely uninterested in warping our legal code around illegal immigrants. They are irrelevant to the conversation. We make laws for the benefit of citizens. Not the other 95% of the globe that aren't American citizens. I'm additionally not sure how giving, let's say black trans women, a free national ID card and requiring her to show it for purchasing cigs, alcohol, driving and voting is a problem. It's non-onerous.
  - ric2b 8y ago
patrickg_zill 8y ago
If a person doesn't have a car, unless they live in a big city, they are likely to be poor. IF they are poor, they are on government assistance, right? So what ID do they use to get that assistance? That someone might have to pay $15-30 every 5 years to renew a state ID, and have it be claimed that it is a "poll tax" to vote, is ridiculous.
- iamnotlarry 8y ago
  I live in a small U.S. town. There are not 10K people living within 25 miles of my house. While few here would admit to being rich, people who don't live here might see them as pretty well off. There is probably something close to 1 car per capita. That includes infants. If you throw in motorcycles, four-wheelers, tractors, loaders, golf carts, boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, personal fork-lifts, etc. we have to go well above 1 vehicle per capita. Still, there are many functioning people here who do not own a single vehicle. That doesn't make them poor or stupid or government-dependent. Your ignorance and prejudice are undermining your ability to mount a convincing argument. I happen to think that a voter ID is not an unacceptable idea. But I run across so many people who seem to mount the kinds of uninformed arguments that you have here. These arguments scare me. They make me worry about the capacity of our society to enact a reasonable voter ID program. It seems like it should be so simple. Then I read the thinking of people like you and worry that it will be botched.
  - patrickg_zill 8y ago
    I grew up in a town smaller than that. How many adults do not have a driver's license, which is acceptable id for voting?
    - iamnotlarry 8y ago
      I have no way to count them. But I can give you one off the top of my head. My dad. Incidentally, he owns two cars.
      - downandout 8y ago
rndgermandude 8y ago
In Germany, I too have to go to some citizens registration office to request an ID card (Personalausweis) and later go there again to retrieve it. It's about 30 EUR, and I have to bring a suitable photo myself, with additional cost and time for that. The thing is then valid for 10 years, tho when I move, I have to go there again to have them change my address on it (free, as of now). Unless the costs and efforts in the US are unduly high - hundreds of dollars and taking off half a week from work or travel half the country - the claim voter ID laws are an actual poll tax designed to keep people away seems suspicious. Sure there is some hassle and a tiny bit of money required, but I don't see anybody claim that drivers licenses are a scheme to keep poor people off the streets in the same regard.

mikejholly 8y ago

You also need to wear clothes and shoes into the polling station. Are those expenses considered poll taxes as well? Straw man, but requiring ID is not really a direct poll tax. I certainly don't feel like I'm being unreasonably taxed when I vote with my ID.

slg 8y ago
You are thinking of this as a person who already has a government issued ID. If you don't drive and don't travel internationally there isn't much in life that would require you go acquire a government issued ID. If the only reason you need the ID is to vote, many people who don't already have an ID won't vote.
- mikejholly 8y ago
  This argument seems like grasping me to. How would one function in society at all without an ID? Opening a bank account, cashing a check, driving a car, visiting a doctor, taking a train or plane, going to court. These are all activities which require ID. Sure, there is a tiny fraction of people who can't engage in those activities. But how likely is it that those folks are going to be voting, anyhow? I found this video pretty funny while searching around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs
  - erik_seaberg 8y ago
    Employers are legally required to check ID. Not sure about landlords or hotels but nearly all of them seem to.
    - coin 8y ago
      Employers are required to verify documents which shows legal status, some of which are IDs. However there combinations of documents on form I-9 which are not IDs.
  - tzs 8y ago
    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/08/voter_id_laws_why_do_minorities_lack_id_to_show_at_the_polls_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
  - slg 8y ago
    An ID certainly makes those things easier, but a government issued photo ID is not actually required for any of them. Like I said in my original comment, the only things that absolutely require an ID are international travel and driving. If you do neither of those, then you might not have an ID.
    - Latteland 8y ago
      Based on ICE hassling poor people on buses, they'd like to check everyone's id on a bus.
  - pseudalopex 8y ago
    7% of US households don't have a bank account.[1] Many people live in walkable areas, carpool, or rely on transit. Visiting a doctor doesn't require ID. Taking a train or plane (or a bus) is easier with ID but possible without. [1] https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/ https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/
    - mikejholly 8y ago
      That's surprisingly high! Although I'd assume the total number of people have IDs is greater than the count of those who have bank accounts since there are multiple activities which require IDs (only one being opening a bank account).
      - pseudalopex 8y ago
        You can even open a bank account without government-issued photo ID. It's just harder.
    - downandout 8y ago
      Visiting a doctor does take ID if you have insurance. Also, by federal law, picking up any prescriptions that a doctor writes requires ID, certainly at least for narcotic prescriptions.
      - pseudalopex 8y ago
        Doctors' offices generally make some effort to verify the identity of anyone not paying up front. Some insist on scanning a government-issued photo ID. Others are more flexible. Regulations for dispensing controlled substances vary from state to state. As of 2013, only 24 states required pharmacists to verify identity.[1] Many of those regulations apply only in certain circumstances, don't specifically require government-issued photo ID, have fallback procedures, or allow the pharmacist to dispense the medication without ID if withholding it would harm the patient. Florida recently passed a law that says it's good enough if the pharmacist recognizes the patient.[2] [1] https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-pdil.pdf [2] https://www.healthlawrx.com/2018/07/florida-imposes-new-id-requirements-for-pharmacist-dispensing-of-controlled-substances/ https://www.healthlawrx.com/2018/07/florida-imposes-new-id-r...
  - iamnotlarry 8y ago
    That's an amusing video. Well framed. But as to your idea about life without an ID... I routinely refuse to show my ID to bank tellers, doctor offices, trains, planes, etc. I avoid most activities the require ID. There is one obvious exception--I drive every day. I carry my ID with me at all times. But I refuse to show to somebody who is not writing me a traffic ticket. That refusal has not impeded my ability to conduct a normal life. FWIW, I am not opposed to voter ID. I am opposed to universal ID. My voter ID should not be required to open a bank account, or rent an apartment. It should be for one purpose. I recently tried to open a bank account. They asked for my SSN. I gave it to them so they could report taxable income to the IRS. They asked for my drivers license. I refused. They asked for my employment history. I refused. If they asked for my shoe size, I would refuse. Over-collection of personal data is a big problem right now. Most people facilitate it. I try to resist it. So far, it hasn't prevented me from voting.
  - eeeuo 8y ago
    So, the premise is that all Liberals think this way, right? It seems odd that Fox News keep returning to college campuses over and over and over to get quotes that are intended to represent the views of Liberals writ large. I mean, they're in New York City, wouldn't it be simpler to go outside their office and interview some adults with jobs? Trying to wrack my brain to figure out why they would keep talking to 18 year olds over and over again, hmm...
- downandout 8y ago
  I’d love for you to explain how living life as an adult in the US without an ID is remotely close to possible for any reasonable length of time. Want a job? You need ID. Banks are obviosuly out, but so are prepaid reloadable cards. Live on cash only from an under-the-table job where you weren’t asked for ID? Fine, but where do you plan to live without ID? Even weekly motels require ID. The idea that a legal, eligible-to-vote US citizen is running around living life in 2018 without any form of ID is preposterous.
  - tzakrajs 8y ago
    No, what is preposterous is that you cant imagine people with no employment, no bank account, nor vehicle to drive living in the US. Those people have a right to vote even if you aren't impressed with their quality of living.
    - downandout 8y ago
      ...living in the US. Those people have a right to vote Living in the US and having the right to vote are not the same thing. Illegal aliens, temporary and permanent residents, and other people of varying status live in the US but cannot legally vote, at least in federal elections.
      - rectang 8y ago
        There are "people with no employment, no bank account, nor vehicle to drive living in the US" who are U.S. citizens. Disenfranchising them is unamerican.
      - tzakrajs 8y ago
        Right, but I was speaking about citizens. Nice deflection. People on HN are usually great but many seem to argue in bad faith and it makes me want to quit this platform (in addition to the others).
        downandout 8y ago
ggggtez 8y ago
If you choose not to vote, you save that money and it effects your life in no direct way. You can't choose not to wear clothes and still expect to live a normal life. The point is if the ID was free, it would be different, because you'd have no incentive to not have one.
flyingcircus3 8y ago
You've conflated your feelings with the government's propensity to provide protection for all Americans. Voting is a right, unlike driving an automobile, which is a privilege. Rights have no prerequisites to enjoy them, unlike privileges. We all agree that many people do have the means to acquire government IDs. Just like all goods and services, the amount of money required to purchase an ID might be a pittance to you, but a significant expense to someone else. This, coupled with what I assume is a track record of not being disenfranchised, might explain why you have no frame of reference from which to appreciate why its a poll tax.
- mikejholly 8y ago
  Let me rephrase: the majority of people in my society would _agree_ that requiring an ID card to vote is reasonable. That is true based on an observation of the status quo. Voting is also a right in Canada. In the US, being an imprisoned felon erases your right to vote. Hence, voting is not a God given grant as you claim. You're also making an ignorant generalization about my background. I was brought up by a single, disabled mother. We lived below the poverty line for the majority of my childhood. You'd do well to discard your arrogant approach.
  - ppseafield 8y ago
    > the majority of people in my society would _agree_ that requiring an ID card to vote is reasonable On the surface it seems like a reasonable requirement, but it disenfranchises people for little to no return. In-person voter fraud is difficult to do in any meaningful amounts. Estimates show the amount is negligible compared to the kind of disenfranchisement voting restrictions cause. Additionally there have been a lot of bullshit practices put up to block people from voting: literary test + grandfather clause, poll tax, corporate thugs watching you vote, white supremacists keeping black people out of polling stations, limiting the quantities of polling stations, resisting early voting, using horribly insecure (Windows XP SP1) voting machines, voter records getting purged. Voting is a right, and it's supposed to be the foundation of our democratic republic. ID costs money, has to be renewed, and is harder to get than it used to be. (Thanks, DHS.) What if you're older, and the building that kept your birth certificate burned down? Or just lost it? This is not uncommon. Do you just not get to vote?
Terr_ 8y ago
Well, your average clothes-or-shoes store isn't sited, controlled, and operated by a partisan political party trying to actively sabotage certain groups to prevent them from voting. The problem is on the ID-provisioning side.

squirrelicus 8y ago

I think it would be reasonable to create a national ID card system and fund it through taxes. It could replace driver licenses and social security cards. I do not know why it would be unreasonable to require such a card for voting. It could also serve as a PKI system with the govt acting as a CA (i.e. manage issuance and revocation). There are non zero benefits. And this doesn't have to operate like a poll tax. I don't understand why this isn't already a thing. Seems obvious.

kodablah 8y ago
> I don't understand why this isn't already a thing. Seems obvious. Because people don't want yet another mandatory way to be tracked by the government. It is especially opposed by those here illegally, their supporters, and others historically disenfranchised by more and more centralized requirements. Not everyone has driver's licenses or ssn cards. There are non-zero problems so what should be obvious is why some oppose even if you don't.
- squirrelicus 8y ago
  I've heard, mostly from libertarian small government types, that I should fear government tracking. I'm not sure exactly why. I'm already tracked by IP and cell towers and using my credit card. And I'm not sure what the government is going to nail me with. I'm not even making an argument about "I'm not doing anything wrong, so why should I fear the machine?" I have assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition purchased with my credit card. There's a non zero risk that the disarmament Inquisition might use my credit card to seize my property or worse. But the risk is... Quite vanishingly small. And I think it's not unreasonable to suggest the risk is vanishingly smaller for ID cards. Additionally, I'm completely uninterested in warping our legal code around illegal immigrants. They are irrelevant to the conversation. We make laws for the benefit of citizens. Not the other 95% of the globe that aren't American citizens. I'm additionally not sure how giving, let's say black trans women, a free national ID card and requiring her to show it for purchasing cigs, alcohol, driving and voting is a problem. It's non-onerous.
- ric2b 8y ago

patrickg_zill 8y ago

If a person doesn't have a car, unless they live in a big city, they are likely to be poor. IF they are poor, they are on government assistance, right? So what ID do they use to get that assistance? That someone might have to pay $15-30 every 5 years to renew a state ID, and have it be claimed that it is a "poll tax" to vote, is ridiculous.

iamnotlarry 8y ago
I live in a small U.S. town. There are not 10K people living within 25 miles of my house. While few here would admit to being rich, people who don't live here might see them as pretty well off. There is probably something close to 1 car per capita. That includes infants. If you throw in motorcycles, four-wheelers, tractors, loaders, golf carts, boats, jet skis, snowmobiles, personal fork-lifts, etc. we have to go well above 1 vehicle per capita. Still, there are many functioning people here who do not own a single vehicle. That doesn't make them poor or stupid or government-dependent. Your ignorance and prejudice are undermining your ability to mount a convincing argument. I happen to think that a voter ID is not an unacceptable idea. But I run across so many people who seem to mount the kinds of uninformed arguments that you have here. These arguments scare me. They make me worry about the capacity of our society to enact a reasonable voter ID program. It seems like it should be so simple. Then I read the thinking of people like you and worry that it will be botched.
- patrickg_zill 8y ago
  I grew up in a town smaller than that. How many adults do not have a driver's license, which is acceptable id for voting?
  - iamnotlarry 8y ago
    I have no way to count them. But I can give you one off the top of my head. My dad. Incidentally, he owns two cars.
    - downandout 8y ago

rndgermandude 8y ago

In Germany, I too have to go to some citizens registration office to request an ID card (Personalausweis) and later go there again to retrieve it. It's about 30 EUR, and I have to bring a suitable photo myself, with additional cost and time for that. The thing is then valid for 10 years, tho when I move, I have to go there again to have them change my address on it (free, as of now). Unless the costs and efforts in the US are unduly high - hundreds of dollars and taking off half a week from work or travel half the country - the claim voter ID laws are an actual poll tax designed to keep people away seems suspicious. Sure there is some hassle and a tiny bit of money required, but I don't see anybody claim that drivers licenses are a scheme to keep poor people off the streets in the same regard.