8 ms·

Another (non-paywalled) article [0] on this says they're only denying/not renewing passports for people with at least $51,000 in tax debt. As such, this isn't e

by rosser 8y ago

Another (non-paywalled) article [0] on this says they're only denying/not renewing passports for people with at least $51,000 in tax debt. As such, this isn't exactly "picking on the little guy", and should probably be considered in that light. If you have an outstanding tax bill on the order of 1.5x (or more) than the median per capita income — if you owe more in taxes than most people make — that's kinda on you, and I'm really not moved to feel too badly about the government taking additional steps to recover that. [0] https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2018-07-06/hundreds-of-thousands-at-risk-for-passport-denial-because-of-tax-debt https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2018-07-06/hun...

kybernetikos 8y ago
America is one of I believe only 2 countries that demand tax on income from its citizens who live and earn abroad (and who have almost certainly already paid tax on that income to the country in which they are living). My understanding is that they won't always even accept a renunciation of citizenship if they believe you're doing it to avoid paying them taxes. It's no surprise to me that there are significant numbers of expats with large unpaid tax bills, possibly from years of working, paying taxes in the country in which they live but never paying US taxes. Point being that this is probably not primarily targetting rich people who aren't paying their share, but people who are paying their share in the country in which they live and work, but are failing to pay an extra portion of tax to a country they left years ago.
- mdorazio 8y ago
  And? If you're that invested in another country, give up your US passport and get one with the new country. Alternatively, work to get the tax laws in the US changed. It's not like this stuff is a secret - if you want to work abroad you're going to get double taxed. Not paying the US portion of taxes is illegal. I don't understand the issue here, maybe you can explain it to me?
  - firic 8y ago
    It is not that simple to renounce US citizenship. As op wrote, if they think that you are renouncing because of taxes, they will flat out deny your request. Furthermore, changing tax law for an expat is virtually impossible because it is very hard to vote from abroad, and expats are very diverse so no one politician would care to represent them.
  - ant6n 8y ago
    Complaining about laws/rules is 'working towards getting them changed'.
  - somebadguy 8y ago
    Oh shut the fuck up you sanctimonious cock.
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    What do you mean double taxed? If you get a tax credit for foreign taxes, it's rather disingenuous to claim to be double taxed, although you could argue it's true in the sense you file for multiple jurisdictions.
- Godel_unicode 8y ago
  You're aware that foreign tax can be taken as a credit or deduction, yes? Further not only are you incorrect about the whole "won't accept" thing, they have a whole process for exactly how you do it. Importantly, that process only applies to well-off expats (multiple years at $150k+ or >$2m in net worth) and anyone else who wants out can get out quickly and cheaply. This whole flap isn't about"can't pay", it's about "don't want to". https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-tax-credit-choosing-to-take-credit-or-deduction https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expa...
  - slededit 8y ago
    You seriously underestimate the burden the US places on its expats and banks that do business with them. Its to the point most foreign banks will not do business with US nationals.
    - Godel_unicode 8y ago
      No, I really don't :) :%s/most/a select few you shouldn't work with anyway
      - slededit 8y ago
        Its actually the vast majority of foreign banks, except those with a strong US presence (and even then not always. E.g. Deutsche bank won't take US clients in Germany [0]). > Most Foreign Banks Don't Want U.S. Clients; How To Find One That Does [1] > U.S. ambassador to Switzerland is asking banks in the country to reverse course and accept Americans as clients. [2] 0: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-banks-expats/u-s-expats-find-their-money-is-no-longer-welcome-at-the-bank-idUSKBN0EM16V20140611 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-banks-expats/u-s-expats-f... 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2012/07/31/most-foreign-banks-dont-want-u-s-clients-how-to-find-one-that-does/#67f972fc7704 https://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2012/07/31/most-... 2: http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/20/investing/swiss-banks-americans-fatca-switzerland/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/20/investing/swiss-banks-americ...
- perl4ever 8y ago
  "America is one of I believe only 2 countries that demand tax on income from its citizens who live and earn abroad" When I pay taxes to a foreign country, I generally get a tax credit on my US taxes. Complaints like yours tend to lead me to infer you think you're entitled to lower than US tax rates in some tax shelter locale, but you are implying (for sympathy) the issue is being taxed higher than a typical citizen of the EU or US.
arkades 8y ago
Please let's not forget that text debt in the US is calculated with penalties and interest retroactively, upon discovery. I absolutely know people that had unknown tax debts (from assets they unknowingly "owned" and got in divorces) pop up, and loom large because of accumulated penalties and interest. (Penalties cannot exceed 25% of the original tax debt, to my knowledge, but I don't believe that interest carries the same cap, and is calculated at the federal short term carry rate + 3%).
DanBC 8y ago
Article 13 doesn't say anything about only applying to the little guy. This is yet another reason Americans would benefit from international human rights.

by rosser 8y ago

kybernetikos 8y ago

America is one of I believe only 2 countries that demand tax on income from its citizens who live and earn abroad (and who have almost certainly already paid tax on that income to the country in which they are living). My understanding is that they won't always even accept a renunciation of citizenship if they believe you're doing it to avoid paying them taxes. It's no surprise to me that there are significant numbers of expats with large unpaid tax bills, possibly from years of working, paying taxes in the country in which they live but never paying US taxes. Point being that this is probably not primarily targetting rich people who aren't paying their share, but people who are paying their share in the country in which they live and work, but are failing to pay an extra portion of tax to a country they left years ago.

mdorazio 8y ago
And? If you're that invested in another country, give up your US passport and get one with the new country. Alternatively, work to get the tax laws in the US changed. It's not like this stuff is a secret - if you want to work abroad you're going to get double taxed. Not paying the US portion of taxes is illegal. I don't understand the issue here, maybe you can explain it to me?
- firic 8y ago
  It is not that simple to renounce US citizenship. As op wrote, if they think that you are renouncing because of taxes, they will flat out deny your request. Furthermore, changing tax law for an expat is virtually impossible because it is very hard to vote from abroad, and expats are very diverse so no one politician would care to represent them.
- ant6n 8y ago
  Complaining about laws/rules is 'working towards getting them changed'.
- somebadguy 8y ago
  Oh shut the fuck up you sanctimonious cock.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  What do you mean double taxed? If you get a tax credit for foreign taxes, it's rather disingenuous to claim to be double taxed, although you could argue it's true in the sense you file for multiple jurisdictions.
Godel_unicode 8y ago
You're aware that foreign tax can be taken as a credit or deduction, yes? Further not only are you incorrect about the whole "won't accept" thing, they have a whole process for exactly how you do it. Importantly, that process only applies to well-off expats (multiple years at $150k+ or >$2m in net worth) and anyone else who wants out can get out quickly and cheaply. This whole flap isn't about"can't pay", it's about "don't want to". https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-tax-credit-choosing-to-take-credit-or-deduction https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore... https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expa...
- slededit 8y ago
  You seriously underestimate the burden the US places on its expats and banks that do business with them. Its to the point most foreign banks will not do business with US nationals.
  - Godel_unicode 8y ago
    No, I really don't :) :%s/most/a select few you shouldn't work with anyway
    - slededit 8y ago
      Its actually the vast majority of foreign banks, except those with a strong US presence (and even then not always. E.g. Deutsche bank won't take US clients in Germany [0]). > Most Foreign Banks Don't Want U.S. Clients; How To Find One That Does [1] > U.S. ambassador to Switzerland is asking banks in the country to reverse course and accept Americans as clients. [2] 0: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-banks-expats/u-s-expats-find-their-money-is-no-longer-welcome-at-the-bank-idUSKBN0EM16V20140611 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-banks-expats/u-s-expats-f... 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2012/07/31/most-foreign-banks-dont-want-u-s-clients-how-to-find-one-that-does/#67f972fc7704 https://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2012/07/31/most-... 2: http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/20/investing/swiss-banks-americans-fatca-switzerland/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/20/investing/swiss-banks-americ...
perl4ever 8y ago
"America is one of I believe only 2 countries that demand tax on income from its citizens who live and earn abroad" When I pay taxes to a foreign country, I generally get a tax credit on my US taxes. Complaints like yours tend to lead me to infer you think you're entitled to lower than US tax rates in some tax shelter locale, but you are implying (for sympathy) the issue is being taxed higher than a typical citizen of the EU or US.

arkades 8y ago

Please let's not forget that text debt in the US is calculated with penalties and interest retroactively, upon discovery. I absolutely know people that had unknown tax debts (from assets they unknowingly "owned" and got in divorces) pop up, and loom large because of accumulated penalties and interest. (Penalties cannot exceed 25% of the original tax debt, to my knowledge, but I don't believe that interest carries the same cap, and is calculated at the federal short term carry rate + 3%).

DanBC 8y ago

Article 13 doesn't say anything about only applying to the little guy. This is yet another reason Americans would benefit from international human rights.