7 ms·

Yes. People need to understand that are whole teams of people whose full time jobs are to get this kind of thing passed. They don't care what's right or wrong.

Yes. People need to understand that are whole teams of people whose full time jobs are to get this kind of thing passed. They don't care what's right or wrong. The Nuremberg defence is perfectly acceptable in business, unfortunately.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Where do we get the names of these people?
- sizzle 8y ago
  We need more thinking like this.
  - walterbell 8y ago
    Plus names of the businesses who support these destructive laws, so their products can be avoided.
    - Moru 8y ago
      Just look up any movies showing in cinemas, music on the radio and reviews in newspapers. That is the same companies behind the lobbying.
- jeffdavis 8y ago
  Peacefully petitioning the government for redress of grievences -- whether you agree with them or not -- should be respected. It's not clear what you intend to do with these names, but I don't see anything good coming out of it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - alpha_squared 8y ago
    While I recognize and admire the sentiment, I'm not sure I agree with the practice in law. Legislation should be as transparent as possible since it affects a populace and doesn't exist in a vacuum among involved parties. As to what intent there is with those names, it could be boycotting products/services from certain organizations -- which is a very valid and legal form of protest.
    - jeffdavis 8y ago
      Why do you need the names of people to boycott? Just get the names of the companies involved.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        You shouldn’t be able to hide when you’re assisting with the dismantling of democracy. If you’re fearful of your name being public, associated with this line of work, you should probably reevaluate your actions. If you support or participate in the further tightening of copyright (when considering how extreme copyright law already is), you are the enemy, and citizens are well within their rights to publicly document your actions.
        jeffdavis 8y ago
        When you make bad ideas your enemy, you can promote real change and bring more people peaceably to your side. When you make people your enemy, you are likely to make things worse.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        This has not been my experience engaging in the political process in the US, both on individual campaigns and when working on specific issues (drug decriminalization and incarceration and gerrymandering, specifically). Whether people are married to their ideas through money or ideology, you are left with little recourse. History is written by the victor, not the noble.
  - x0x0 8y ago
    It's ludicrous to believe that publishing the names of people and companies requesting a change in law is somehow nefarious. People should be happy to have their names associated with laws they support, and if they aren't, that definitely speaks to the desirability of the law for the rest of us.
  - a1369209993 8y ago
    They aren't peacefully petitioning; the're bribing lawmakers. Also, that's a right that people have, not corporations.
    - jeffdavis 8y ago
      Then get a list of the names of the corporations not the people. Maybe that can lead to a boycott, which is fine. It's kind of scary to start assembling lists of peoples' names that are your opponents.
      - baybal2 8y ago
        >assembling lists of peoples' names that are your opponents If you want to defeat your opponents, a great thing to do. Keep track of them. The best service you can give to an enemy, is to forget him. >My opponents are bad laws and bad ideas. Let's make lists of those. Don't you think that bad ideas are possessed by bad people? In my view of the world, the root of all good and bad are the people. People's deeds and ideas don't live separate lives from physical human beings having/doing them.
        jeffdavis 8y ago
        My opponents are bad laws and bad ideas. Let's make lists of those. Individual people may have both good ideas and bad ideas, and those may change over time. Lists of opponents' names are a really bad solution because they ignore the distinction between people and ideas.
        ryandrake 8y ago
        Ideas can’t be shamed or ostracized. Ideas don’t respond to incentives. Ideas can’t engage in debate. Trying to fight ideas is futile without also opposing the people with boots on the ground implementing the ideas.
      - kabulykos 8y ago
        What's scary about it? The risk individual (natural) persons might be rude to each other based on political opinions? Dude — already happening.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    >It's not clear what you intend to do with these names, but I don't see anything good coming out of it. Just demonstrating that you know a lot of even remotely private information about somebody is a very effective intimidation method.
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    I fully agree any protest should be peaceful, but transparency is important. Let's imagine a world where as you suggest, corporation names are revealed but not individuals. Well, where does that leave us? Maybe I'll just go as myself instead of my company. I won't represent my company, I just happen to be its CEO, its chief lobbyist, or whatever. So no, we'd need full transparency. This kind of thing is common among various branches of democratic governments. Presidents' schedules are usually mostly public, fundings of various sorts are public, etc. Opaqueness leads to darkness.
- moqster 8y ago
  for german parties: https://twitter.com/MartinSonneborn/status/1014880507132342272 https://twitter.com/MartinSonneborn/status/10148805071323422...
  - freeflight 8y ago
    Sonnenborn and his "Die Partei" are a blessing in disguise. It's also extremely weird how a satire political party regularly makes the most sense by bluntly stating like it is. Maybe that's the actual secret to proper politics: Saying it like it is, spiced up with some fun.
  - Kliment 8y ago
    Unfortunately that doesn't match 100% with the official roll call vote results.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  On the EU their front-line must be registered, doesn't it? It's a matter of finding out how; you can probably just ask the right people and you will have your answer.
- teamhappy 8y ago
  Lobyplag publishes the documents different companies/govs hand out: https://lobbyplag.eu/docs https://lobbyplag.eu/docs
- Joeri 8y ago
  You can search the EU transparency register. For some EU lobbying activities participation in the register is mandatory. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/20180108STO91215/transparency-register-who-is-lobbying-the-eu-infographic http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/2...

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Where do we get the names of these people?

sizzle 8y ago
We need more thinking like this.
- walterbell 8y ago
  Plus names of the businesses who support these destructive laws, so their products can be avoided.
  - Moru 8y ago
    Just look up any movies showing in cinemas, music on the radio and reviews in newspapers. That is the same companies behind the lobbying.
jeffdavis 8y ago
Peacefully petitioning the government for redress of grievences -- whether you agree with them or not -- should be respected. It's not clear what you intend to do with these names, but I don't see anything good coming out of it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- alpha_squared 8y ago
  While I recognize and admire the sentiment, I'm not sure I agree with the practice in law. Legislation should be as transparent as possible since it affects a populace and doesn't exist in a vacuum among involved parties. As to what intent there is with those names, it could be boycotting products/services from certain organizations -- which is a very valid and legal form of protest.
  - jeffdavis 8y ago
    Why do you need the names of people to boycott? Just get the names of the companies involved.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      You shouldn’t be able to hide when you’re assisting with the dismantling of democracy. If you’re fearful of your name being public, associated with this line of work, you should probably reevaluate your actions. If you support or participate in the further tightening of copyright (when considering how extreme copyright law already is), you are the enemy, and citizens are well within their rights to publicly document your actions.
      - jeffdavis 8y ago
        When you make bad ideas your enemy, you can promote real change and bring more people peaceably to your side. When you make people your enemy, you are likely to make things worse.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        This has not been my experience engaging in the political process in the US, both on individual campaigns and when working on specific issues (drug decriminalization and incarceration and gerrymandering, specifically). Whether people are married to their ideas through money or ideology, you are left with little recourse. History is written by the victor, not the noble.
- x0x0 8y ago
  It's ludicrous to believe that publishing the names of people and companies requesting a change in law is somehow nefarious. People should be happy to have their names associated with laws they support, and if they aren't, that definitely speaks to the desirability of the law for the rest of us.
- a1369209993 8y ago
  They aren't peacefully petitioning; the're bribing lawmakers. Also, that's a right that people have, not corporations.
  - jeffdavis 8y ago
    Then get a list of the names of the corporations not the people. Maybe that can lead to a boycott, which is fine. It's kind of scary to start assembling lists of peoples' names that are your opponents.
    - baybal2 8y ago
      >assembling lists of peoples' names that are your opponents If you want to defeat your opponents, a great thing to do. Keep track of them. The best service you can give to an enemy, is to forget him. >My opponents are bad laws and bad ideas. Let's make lists of those. Don't you think that bad ideas are possessed by bad people? In my view of the world, the root of all good and bad are the people. People's deeds and ideas don't live separate lives from physical human beings having/doing them.
      - jeffdavis 8y ago
        My opponents are bad laws and bad ideas. Let's make lists of those. Individual people may have both good ideas and bad ideas, and those may change over time. Lists of opponents' names are a really bad solution because they ignore the distinction between people and ideas.
        ryandrake 8y ago
        Ideas can’t be shamed or ostracized. Ideas don’t respond to incentives. Ideas can’t engage in debate. Trying to fight ideas is futile without also opposing the people with boots on the ground implementing the ideas.
    - kabulykos 8y ago
      What's scary about it? The risk individual (natural) persons might be rude to each other based on political opinions? Dude — already happening.
- baybal2 8y ago
  >It's not clear what you intend to do with these names, but I don't see anything good coming out of it. Just demonstrating that you know a lot of even remotely private information about somebody is a very effective intimidation method.
- scrollaway 8y ago
  I fully agree any protest should be peaceful, but transparency is important. Let's imagine a world where as you suggest, corporation names are revealed but not individuals. Well, where does that leave us? Maybe I'll just go as myself instead of my company. I won't represent my company, I just happen to be its CEO, its chief lobbyist, or whatever. So no, we'd need full transparency. This kind of thing is common among various branches of democratic governments. Presidents' schedules are usually mostly public, fundings of various sorts are public, etc. Opaqueness leads to darkness.
moqster 8y ago
for german parties: https://twitter.com/MartinSonneborn/status/1014880507132342272 https://twitter.com/MartinSonneborn/status/10148805071323422...
- freeflight 8y ago
  Sonnenborn and his "Die Partei" are a blessing in disguise. It's also extremely weird how a satire political party regularly makes the most sense by bluntly stating like it is. Maybe that's the actual secret to proper politics: Saying it like it is, spiced up with some fun.
- Kliment 8y ago
  Unfortunately that doesn't match 100% with the official roll call vote results.
marcosdumay 8y ago
On the EU their front-line must be registered, doesn't it? It's a matter of finding out how; you can probably just ask the right people and you will have your answer.
teamhappy 8y ago
Lobyplag publishes the documents different companies/govs hand out: https://lobbyplag.eu/docs https://lobbyplag.eu/docs
Joeri 8y ago
You can search the EU transparency register. For some EU lobbying activities participation in the register is mandatory. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/20180108STO91215/transparency-register-who-is-lobbying-the-eu-infographic http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/eu-affairs/2...