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Seeing how close it was I am really pessimistic about EU and further integration. I want my country to have a shot at sane copyright/patent/tax laws. If they fa

Seeing how close it was I am really pessimistic about EU and further integration. I want my country to have a shot at sane copyright/patent/tax laws. If they fail I want other countries to have that shot, maybe at least one succeed and I could move there. With one centralized government there will be nowhere to run if things like UK prison-for-wrongthink or German/Spanish copyright and censorpship laws are implemented.

Tomte 8y ago
That argument scales up and down, which makes it pointless without an accompanying argument about absolute size. Why is your country's current extent and size optimal? Why not split it up, maybe even down to sovereign towns? Why not unify it with one of your neighbours?
- bluecalm 8y ago
  I am all for giving more power to the local governments. The more local it gets the better. That being said at least on a country level there are people who speak the same language and are brought in somewhat similar culture. There is much bigger chance the laws are going to be acceptable for me if they are made by people who live here, know our history and are brought in our culture. For example after 45 years of in-fact occupation by the Soviets people here won't easily accept censorship and wrong-think laws. Those things are too fresh in memory. It might be easier for our politician to vote for that in EU parliament when they are safely away from home (they didn't from what I understand) but they would think twice voting for it here. Another thing is that people follow country level politics much closer than they follow EU politics which seems to be very detached. What usually happen is "GDPR got voted in EU, we need to adjust our laws" without any kind of public discussion about if we even want that law to begin with. It may work somewhat better in USA where at least there is one language and some common element in education system (history, civics etc.). Here it just seems that People's Party Committeein in Brussels is making up laws and we are supposed to just accept it.
  - bojan 8y ago
    > without any kind of public discussion about if we even want that law to begin with. That is an omission of your politicians for not involving the public into the discussions, as there certainly are deep debates at the EU level that your elected politicians participate in.
nek28 8y ago
What gives you the right to randomly move to places that have laws that satisfy you, if they are not all part of a (more or less) centralised government?
- bluecalm 8y ago
  A lot of countries are happy to accept immigrants from other civilized countries. If some are not, that's their choice, I will look into those who are open to accepting me. We can have freedom of movement without tons of other regulations. I can for example move to Thailand as many of my friends did even though Thailand isn't in any way of form part of centralized EU government. They will just be happy if I live, pay taxes and spend money there. There are laws that need to be set at global level but set of those is way smaller than EU legislature operates on.
  - maze-le 8y ago
    >> They will just be happy if I live, pay taxes and spend money there. And don't critisize the King or the Military. 'cause you might encounter what real consorship looks like. Unlike the EU, Thailand actually has censorship laws.
DanBC 8y ago
> UK prison-for-wrongthink Doesn't happen.
- hyperdunc 8y ago
  Because the UK authorities are not yet able to read thoughts. But there are people in prison for wrongspeak. And more that have been fined or detained.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Almost all of the examples you're thinking of are people who've made credible threats of violence against others, or who have caused harm to others.
jopsen 8y ago
How about healthcare, immigration laws, wealthfare, educational support, etc... You can't just move to a magic place that has it all, if where you live fails on one parameter. It might be better and cheaper to try to improve the place you live one step at the time. This assumes you live in the EU, there are worse places for which this might not hold.

Tomte 8y ago

That argument scales up and down, which makes it pointless without an accompanying argument about absolute size. Why is your country's current extent and size optimal? Why not split it up, maybe even down to sovereign towns? Why not unify it with one of your neighbours?

bluecalm 8y ago
I am all for giving more power to the local governments. The more local it gets the better. That being said at least on a country level there are people who speak the same language and are brought in somewhat similar culture. There is much bigger chance the laws are going to be acceptable for me if they are made by people who live here, know our history and are brought in our culture. For example after 45 years of in-fact occupation by the Soviets people here won't easily accept censorship and wrong-think laws. Those things are too fresh in memory. It might be easier for our politician to vote for that in EU parliament when they are safely away from home (they didn't from what I understand) but they would think twice voting for it here. Another thing is that people follow country level politics much closer than they follow EU politics which seems to be very detached. What usually happen is "GDPR got voted in EU, we need to adjust our laws" without any kind of public discussion about if we even want that law to begin with. It may work somewhat better in USA where at least there is one language and some common element in education system (history, civics etc.). Here it just seems that People's Party Committeein in Brussels is making up laws and we are supposed to just accept it.
- bojan 8y ago
  > without any kind of public discussion about if we even want that law to begin with. That is an omission of your politicians for not involving the public into the discussions, as there certainly are deep debates at the EU level that your elected politicians participate in.

nek28 8y ago

What gives you the right to randomly move to places that have laws that satisfy you, if they are not all part of a (more or less) centralised government?

bluecalm 8y ago
A lot of countries are happy to accept immigrants from other civilized countries. If some are not, that's their choice, I will look into those who are open to accepting me. We can have freedom of movement without tons of other regulations. I can for example move to Thailand as many of my friends did even though Thailand isn't in any way of form part of centralized EU government. They will just be happy if I live, pay taxes and spend money there. There are laws that need to be set at global level but set of those is way smaller than EU legislature operates on.
- maze-le 8y ago
  >> They will just be happy if I live, pay taxes and spend money there. And don't critisize the King or the Military. 'cause you might encounter what real consorship looks like. Unlike the EU, Thailand actually has censorship laws.

DanBC 8y ago

> UK prison-for-wrongthink Doesn't happen.

hyperdunc 8y ago
Because the UK authorities are not yet able to read thoughts. But there are people in prison for wrongspeak. And more that have been fined or detained.
- DanBC 8y ago
  Almost all of the examples you're thinking of are people who've made credible threats of violence against others, or who have caused harm to others.

jopsen 8y ago

How about healthcare, immigration laws, wealthfare, educational support, etc... You can't just move to a magic place that has it all, if where you live fails on one parameter. It might be better and cheaper to try to improve the place you live one step at the time. This assumes you live in the EU, there are worse places for which this might not hold.