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>This is a huge misconception people have about the military. I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topi

>This is a huge misconception people have about the military. I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. It's difficult to call what is being clearly demonstrated through multiple channels "a huge misconception". Especially considering this is an Israeli NCO saying this, when the Israelis have a reputation for actually being one of the most individualistic armies in the West. >In fact the core philosophy of command in western militaries is one of enabling people to make their own independent decisions. Compared to the earlier forms of warfare, this is absolutely true. A modern NCO has a level of independent from central command that would have utterly flabbergasted officers even a hundred years ago. Heck, Roman centurions were afforded less autonomy to make decisions than we give modernly to srgts. But in absolute terms, compared to the civilian sector? The military is still an extremely authoritarian place that is utterly slavish to obedience. Because it has to be, men still need to obey their superiors when told to do things they might not want to do. Yes lower and lower ranks are given the freedom to set their own objectives and adapt on the fly to changing circumstances, and compared to the rest of military history that is quite something, but they still are not remotely individualistic or all that autonomous compared to non-military contexts. I mean why do you suppose we retain the officer/enlisted divide, and still demand both sides keep a cordial but distant relationship? It's because we still need the authoritarian stuff as a backbone, so when an officer says "Jump" an enlisted man jumps rather than trying to argue. The Soviets found this out the hard way after the 1917 revolution, when they tried abolishing the officer corps. as a vestige of elitist authoritarianism and it backfired so horrifically they had to gobble up defecting white army officers just to survive.

sgift 8y ago
> I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire. Yes, there are situations where the military (or self-defense or many other things) train you to the point that muscle memory takes over and you just do what you have learned. Using that anecdote to somehow say "the whole military is" is not even a stretch anymore, it's just wrong.
- j9461701 8y ago
  >You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire The first hand account is the former Israeli NCO paratrooper, the mine field example is just an illustration for why the military retains that style of management despite its problems. >Using that anecdote to somehow say "the whole military is" is not even a stretch anymore, it's just wrong. And I can clearly see you didn't actually read the whole article I linked to, and are instead trying to argue just based on my minor quotation. I really recommend you fully read it before arguing, both for your own edification and because it's really interesting.
  - adventured 8y ago
    > The first hand account is the former Israeli NCO paratrooper The worst paratrooper they ever had, per their own admission. The US does not train the same way Israel does. Which does not train the same way China does, or Germany does, and so on.
    - j9461701 8y ago
      >The worst paratrooper they ever had, per their own admission. Because he wasn't suited to military style leadership. So he became a software dev instead, and he enjoyed that much more. Still, this is a fair point. >The US does not train the same way Israel does. Which does not train the same way China does, or Germany does, and so on. The IDF is, as I said above, famous for its individualism and relatively lax standards of discipline by Western military standards. I suppose having fought several huge wars of national survival within living memory makes you throw all the superfluous authoritarianism out the window and retain only those parts of it which are essential to function. So if even they are still very heavy on authority and instant obedience, the US isn't going to be any better. Nor, especially, would China who follow the Russian school of top-down control compared to the Western emphasis on bottom up (aka mission-style tactics the other fellow linked to).
chrisseaton 8y ago
> I just gave you a first hand account of it From someone who describes themselves as being very bad at the job! Maybe this was what he was getting wrong? > when an officer says "Jump" an enlisted man jumps rather than trying to argue This is what people get wrong. When an officer says 'jump' the enlisted man actually responds 'tell me what you want me to achieve, sir, then it's my job to decide how I want to make it happen whether that's jumping or something else'. A junior non-commissioned officer will tell you respectfully but firmly to back well off if you start telling them how to complete a task.
- j9461701 8y ago
  >From someone who describes themselves as being very bad at the job! Maybe this was what he was getting wrong? Perhaps. He was really awful at the whole "military discipline" part of being in the military. Now he's a software developer, so that all worked out for him. >This is what people get wrong. When an officer says 'jump' the enlisted man actually responds 'tell me what you want me to achieve, sir, then it's my job to decide how I want to make it happen whether that's jumping or something else'. I personally only have 2nd hand accounts of the interaction from the officer's side, so I may well be getting it wrong. My physics classes had a few navy guys in them, who were trying to get...something or other, they needed a degree in a hard science to get a promotion. I don't really know what exactly. Anyway, being really interested in ships I talked their ear off about everything whenever they'd let me. And the topic of ordering men around was always treated with a certain...presumption that every word they said would be instantly obeyed without question. Stand here and look over there at the horizon until I say otherwise sailor. Scrape this wall with this scrapper sailor, and then paint it over. Carry this crate below decks, no stopping sailor. Inventory the armory sailor, mop the deck sailor, etc. etc.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

sgift 8y ago

> I just gave you a first hand account of it, and a concrete illustration of it is the current topic of discussion. You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire. Yes, there are situations where the military (or self-defense or many other things) train you to the point that muscle memory takes over and you just do what you have learned. Using that anecdote to somehow say "the whole military is" is not even a stretch anymore, it's just wrong.

j9461701 8y ago
>You gave an account for a single situation, which is completely different from the normal business: Being caught in a minefield under fire The first hand account is the former Israeli NCO paratrooper, the mine field example is just an illustration for why the military retains that style of management despite its problems. >Using that anecdote to somehow say "the whole military is" is not even a stretch anymore, it's just wrong. And I can clearly see you didn't actually read the whole article I linked to, and are instead trying to argue just based on my minor quotation. I really recommend you fully read it before arguing, both for your own edification and because it's really interesting.
- adventured 8y ago
  > The first hand account is the former Israeli NCO paratrooper The worst paratrooper they ever had, per their own admission. The US does not train the same way Israel does. Which does not train the same way China does, or Germany does, and so on.
  - j9461701 8y ago
    >The worst paratrooper they ever had, per their own admission. Because he wasn't suited to military style leadership. So he became a software dev instead, and he enjoyed that much more. Still, this is a fair point. >The US does not train the same way Israel does. Which does not train the same way China does, or Germany does, and so on. The IDF is, as I said above, famous for its individualism and relatively lax standards of discipline by Western military standards. I suppose having fought several huge wars of national survival within living memory makes you throw all the superfluous authoritarianism out the window and retain only those parts of it which are essential to function. So if even they are still very heavy on authority and instant obedience, the US isn't going to be any better. Nor, especially, would China who follow the Russian school of top-down control compared to the Western emphasis on bottom up (aka mission-style tactics the other fellow linked to).

chrisseaton 8y ago

> I just gave you a first hand account of it From someone who describes themselves as being very bad at the job! Maybe this was what he was getting wrong? > when an officer says "Jump" an enlisted man jumps rather than trying to argue This is what people get wrong. When an officer says 'jump' the enlisted man actually responds 'tell me what you want me to achieve, sir, then it's my job to decide how I want to make it happen whether that's jumping or something else'. A junior non-commissioned officer will tell you respectfully but firmly to back well off if you start telling them how to complete a task.

j9461701 8y ago
>From someone who describes themselves as being very bad at the job! Maybe this was what he was getting wrong? Perhaps. He was really awful at the whole "military discipline" part of being in the military. Now he's a software developer, so that all worked out for him. >This is what people get wrong. When an officer says 'jump' the enlisted man actually responds 'tell me what you want me to achieve, sir, then it's my job to decide how I want to make it happen whether that's jumping or something else'. I personally only have 2nd hand accounts of the interaction from the officer's side, so I may well be getting it wrong. My physics classes had a few navy guys in them, who were trying to get...something or other, they needed a degree in a hard science to get a promotion. I don't really know what exactly. Anyway, being really interested in ships I talked their ear off about everything whenever they'd let me. And the topic of ordering men around was always treated with a certain...presumption that every word they said would be instantly obeyed without question. Stand here and look over there at the horizon until I say otherwise sailor. Scrape this wall with this scrapper sailor, and then paint it over. Carry this crate below decks, no stopping sailor. Inventory the armory sailor, mop the deck sailor, etc. etc.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]