5 ms·

The vote was worryingly close though: In favour: 278 Against: 318 The pessimist in me can't see this getting rejected a second time :(

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
What I'm reading is that they'll mostly just adjust some part of this proposal until it does pass; whether Article 11 or 13 make it (which are the most controversial) then is to be seen. Yet, I'm worried now that those articles were just ludicrous distractions for the real problem. That is, it shouldn't pass without those articles, but those that would oppose it normally would now vote in favor of it because "at least it doesn't have those articles anymore". like how [politics] the current political climate and news coverage is pushing what used to be extreme-right standpoints more towards the more acceptable political middle. As in,"well at least we're not separating kids from parents anymore"[/politics]
- draugadrotten 8y ago
  > pushing what used to be extreme-right standpoints more towards the more acceptable political middle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window It's a political tactic used since at least Roman days.
  - ajuc 8y ago
    Why can't we create copyright abolition proposal to do the same the other way?
    - vixen99 8y ago
      And the route to proposing laws in the EU is ... ?
      - ajuc 8y ago
        I have no idea. Probably buy a coffee to some europarliament member and talk to him about it.
        sampo 8y ago
        Unlike the US Congress, The European Parliament cannot initiate legislation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_initiative_(legislative)#Legislative_initiative_in_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_initiative_(legislati...
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Because you need funding (and popular support). The only way to match the funding behind copyright increase is to appeal to the public, but the opposite lobby control the media which most of the public feeds on as if it were manna from heaven. Reduce copyright to 15 years? B-but Mickey will die, and we'll be so poor at EvilMedia Corp. we won't be able to make any more Marvel or Star Wars.
      - anticensor 8y ago
        Both copyright and patent should be reformed to have the same duration, 21 years (until you are replaced by your descendant's apprentices): 1. For copyright, these 21 years should be organised as 4-12yr granted (varying on the work, lack of registration meaning public domain by default) and renewable every six months with an exponentially increasing maintenance fee (first maintainance fee might be placed in the ballpark of £8192). 2. For patents, these 21 years should be organised as 3½ years after grant (this will encourage to file as soon as possible to get protection), renewable every 3½ years with an exponentially increasing maintenance fee (first maintainance fee might be placed in the ballpark of £1,048,576). 3. For sculptures and buildings, these copyright should cease one year after construction is completed, but with a limitation that protection not allowed to exceed 7 years in total.
        Tharkun 8y ago
        Who do I vote for in order to make this happen?
        ajuc 8y ago
        In some European coutnries there is Pirate Party in the parliament. They are focused on fighting oppresive intelectual property and copyright laws.
      - ajuc 8y ago
        > B-but Mickey will die, and we'll be so poor at EvilMedia Corp. we won't be able to make any more Marvel or Star Wars. None of these are European, though. Should be easy to sell, especially now that UK is exiting.
- ginko 8y ago
  At least judging from the description on Wikipedia, the other articles seem mostly reasonable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_Digital_Single_Market#Content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_...
  - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
    The text and data mining restrictions are anything but reasonable. Why on earth should there be an additional copyright for processing data automatically when you already have the right to process the same data manually? This kills European AI startups or drives them away.
    - teamhappy 8y ago
      They're copyright exceptions, not restrictions, meaning you don't need a license to process copyrighted data for scientific research.
      - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        They are exceptions for research and restrictions for startups at the same time.
        teamhappy 8y ago
        I don't get it. How is giving more rights to researchers restricting startups?
        fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        More rights compared to what? What matters is that EU AI startups are more restricted than US startups.
        ginko 8y ago
        I'm pretty sure US startups also have to respect copyright law when mining data on the internet?
- krn 8y ago
  "US Congress quietly slips cloud-spying powers into page 2,201 of spending mega-bill"[1]. Could the EU copyright law be slipped in the same way? [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/23/cloud_act_spending_bill/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/23/cloud_act_spending_...
  - chki 8y ago
    Technically: maybe. But the EU legislative process is very transparent (which is partially caused by the different legislative bodies that need to participate) and the European Parliament would probably not approve of such a hidden policy change.
    - krotton 8y ago
      Actually they did (in 2005) try to slip a vote on software patents in by scheduling it for an "Agriculture and Fishery" meeting. Luckily, they failed. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2005/jan/23/eusdirtytrick https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2005/jan/23/eusd...
- lagadu 8y ago
  Have you read it? It's pretty reasonable without those articles.
- merinowool 8y ago
  It is a shame people don't even question if that was necessary at all...
merinowool 8y ago
That's the democracy in the EU - things get voted until there is desirable outcome.
bambax 8y ago
Yes. Where can one see who voted what? We have European elections coming up soon, I'd like to use this vote to inform mine.
- whermans 8y ago
  http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/votes.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/votes.html
- LaurentS 8y ago
  page 7 of this has the details of who voted what. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2fEP%2f%2fNONSGML%2bPV%2b20180705%2bRES-RCV%2bDOC%2bPDF%2bV0%2f%2fEN&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2f...
  - bambax 8y ago
    Thanks!
jopsen 8y ago
We said the same about software patents. The realist in me can't imagine the outrage will be any smaller the next time they try to pass it.
haywirez 8y ago
As a side note, I've spent quite some time calling the offices and sending individually personalised e-mails to most of the PPE abstain voters. I guess normally they would've voted in favour. Maybe it's possible to have some small effect in the end? A special award goes to a Slovenian NGO for making this hilarious vote tracking page: https://danesjenovdan.si/resimointernet/ https://danesjenovdan.si/resimointernet/
mirimir 8y ago
Yes, and the breakout by party is disturbing too.[0] Greens, Regionalists, Pirate, Left and Eurosceptic Populists were strongly against, but only have 120 votes total. Eurosceptic Conservatives and Liberals were mostly against, but only have 124 total. Social Democrats (167) and Far Right (32) split evenly. And Far Right (177) were strongly in favor. I'm guessing that Eurosceptics are mainly against more EU laws. And that it's largely Social Democrats that have the votes to pass a weaker version. 0) https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1014914337763418112 https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1014914337763418112

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

What I'm reading is that they'll mostly just adjust some part of this proposal until it does pass; whether Article 11 or 13 make it (which are the most controversial) then is to be seen. Yet, I'm worried now that those articles were just ludicrous distractions for the real problem. That is, it shouldn't pass without those articles, but those that would oppose it normally would now vote in favor of it because "at least it doesn't have those articles anymore". like how [politics] the current political climate and news coverage is pushing what used to be extreme-right standpoints more towards the more acceptable political middle. As in,"well at least we're not separating kids from parents anymore"[/politics]

draugadrotten 8y ago
> pushing what used to be extreme-right standpoints more towards the more acceptable political middle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window It's a political tactic used since at least Roman days.
- ajuc 8y ago
  Why can't we create copyright abolition proposal to do the same the other way?
  - vixen99 8y ago
    And the route to proposing laws in the EU is ... ?
    - ajuc 8y ago
      I have no idea. Probably buy a coffee to some europarliament member and talk to him about it.
      - sampo 8y ago
        Unlike the US Congress, The European Parliament cannot initiate legislation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_initiative_(legislative)#Legislative_initiative_in_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_initiative_(legislati...
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Because you need funding (and popular support). The only way to match the funding behind copyright increase is to appeal to the public, but the opposite lobby control the media which most of the public feeds on as if it were manna from heaven. Reduce copyright to 15 years? B-but Mickey will die, and we'll be so poor at EvilMedia Corp. we won't be able to make any more Marvel or Star Wars.
    - anticensor 8y ago
      Both copyright and patent should be reformed to have the same duration, 21 years (until you are replaced by your descendant's apprentices): 1. For copyright, these 21 years should be organised as 4-12yr granted (varying on the work, lack of registration meaning public domain by default) and renewable every six months with an exponentially increasing maintenance fee (first maintainance fee might be placed in the ballpark of £8192). 2. For patents, these 21 years should be organised as 3½ years after grant (this will encourage to file as soon as possible to get protection), renewable every 3½ years with an exponentially increasing maintenance fee (first maintainance fee might be placed in the ballpark of £1,048,576). 3. For sculptures and buildings, these copyright should cease one year after construction is completed, but with a limitation that protection not allowed to exceed 7 years in total.
      - Tharkun 8y ago
        Who do I vote for in order to make this happen?
        ajuc 8y ago
        In some European coutnries there is Pirate Party in the parliament. They are focused on fighting oppresive intelectual property and copyright laws.
    - ajuc 8y ago
      > B-but Mickey will die, and we'll be so poor at EvilMedia Corp. we won't be able to make any more Marvel or Star Wars. None of these are European, though. Should be easy to sell, especially now that UK is exiting.
ginko 8y ago
At least judging from the description on Wikipedia, the other articles seem mostly reasonable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_Digital_Single_Market#Content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_...
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  The text and data mining restrictions are anything but reasonable. Why on earth should there be an additional copyright for processing data automatically when you already have the right to process the same data manually? This kills European AI startups or drives them away.
  - teamhappy 8y ago
    They're copyright exceptions, not restrictions, meaning you don't need a license to process copyrighted data for scientific research.
    - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      They are exceptions for research and restrictions for startups at the same time.
      - teamhappy 8y ago
        I don't get it. How is giving more rights to researchers restricting startups?
        fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        More rights compared to what? What matters is that EU AI startups are more restricted than US startups.
        ginko 8y ago
        I'm pretty sure US startups also have to respect copyright law when mining data on the internet?
krn 8y ago
"US Congress quietly slips cloud-spying powers into page 2,201 of spending mega-bill"[1]. Could the EU copyright law be slipped in the same way? [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/23/cloud_act_spending_bill/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/23/cloud_act_spending_...
- chki 8y ago
  Technically: maybe. But the EU legislative process is very transparent (which is partially caused by the different legislative bodies that need to participate) and the European Parliament would probably not approve of such a hidden policy change.
  - krotton 8y ago
    Actually they did (in 2005) try to slip a vote on software patents in by scheduling it for an "Agriculture and Fishery" meeting. Luckily, they failed. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2005/jan/23/eusdirtytrick https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2005/jan/23/eusd...
lagadu 8y ago
Have you read it? It's pretty reasonable without those articles.
merinowool 8y ago
It is a shame people don't even question if that was necessary at all...

merinowool 8y ago

That's the democracy in the EU - things get voted until there is desirable outcome.

bambax 8y ago

Yes. Where can one see who voted what? We have European elections coming up soon, I'd like to use this vote to inform mine.

whermans 8y ago
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/votes.html http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/en/votes.html
LaurentS 8y ago
page 7 of this has the details of who voted what. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2fEP%2f%2fNONSGML%2bPV%2b20180705%2bRES-RCV%2bDOC%2bPDF%2bV0%2f%2fEN&language=EN http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2f%2f...
- bambax 8y ago
  Thanks!

jopsen 8y ago

We said the same about software patents. The realist in me can't imagine the outrage will be any smaller the next time they try to pass it.

haywirez 8y ago

As a side note, I've spent quite some time calling the offices and sending individually personalised e-mails to most of the PPE abstain voters. I guess normally they would've voted in favour. Maybe it's possible to have some small effect in the end? A special award goes to a Slovenian NGO for making this hilarious vote tracking page: https://danesjenovdan.si/resimointernet/ https://danesjenovdan.si/resimointernet/

mirimir 8y ago

Yes, and the breakout by party is disturbing too.[0] Greens, Regionalists, Pirate, Left and Eurosceptic Populists were strongly against, but only have 120 votes total. Eurosceptic Conservatives and Liberals were mostly against, but only have 124 total. Social Democrats (167) and Far Right (32) split evenly. And Far Right (177) were strongly in favor. I'm guessing that Eurosceptics are mainly against more EU laws. And that it's largely Social Democrats that have the votes to pass a weaker version. 0) https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1014914337763418112 https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1014914337763418112