9 ms·

The Pentagon Is Building a Team of Tech-Savvy Soldiers

127 points by ohjeez 8y ago

Spooky23 8y ago
Great story that should trigger some thought in valley tech people. There are smart people all over the place who are difficult to reach.
black6 8y ago
> “The Army didn’t really know what to do with me,” he says. “So they sent me to Ranger School. I learned how to jump out of planes and carry rifles and stuff like that.” GROAN What branch did you go, fuckwit? That's what the Army wanted to do with you.
- code_duck 8y ago
  Sure, that’s why they sent him to Ranger School. I think the point is that it wasn’t making the most of his skills.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't do this here.
grivescorbett 8y ago
3 orders of magnitude difference in cost... I think we’re having the wrong conversations about taxes in the US.
zachruss92 8y ago
I really enjoyed this article. The DDS is literally doing the same kind of things that the USDS is doing, but for military applications. Given the fact that the largest portion of our taxes goes towards defense spending, initiatives like create opportunities to allocate resources more efficiently, iterate with agility, and save a ton of money. When you look at DoD contractors, there is obviously a motivation on their end to have larger contracts with inflated budgets and prolonged timelines - they're businesses. On the flip side, a government agency has none of those motivations - they just want to save lives as quickly and affordably as possible. I am curious to see if these "lean" organizations will pop up in other parts of the federal/state/local governments. There are so many areas where better UX, logical efficiency, or inner-department communication could make people's lives easier or even save them: - In PA you need to sign up for a tax ID separately from filing articles of incorporation. Why can't the Department of State and Department of revenue's system sync up to create a tax ID at the time of incorporation? - Philadelphia's transit authority SEPTA has been rolling out a cashless fare system using RFID/NFC. It was supposed to be released in 2013 and still isn't complete. It cost $300 Million for Xerox to build which was twice as much as the initial budget. The kicker is their website used isn't even functional on mobile - it _literally_ uses nested tables for layout. A more efficient way to do this would be to use your phone for everything (using built in NFC) and an app to manage your fares.
- arkis22 8y ago
  The largest portion of our taxes does not go to defense spending. It goes to entitlements.
  - wmeredith 8y ago
    Absolutely. 62% of the budget goes to social security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The rest is discretionary spending and a bit more than half of that goes to “defense”. Source: https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305789 https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305...
    - adventured 8y ago
      That's just the federal budget. US taxes & spending include local + state + federal. Leaving off the other $3.x trillion in taxation & spending, nearly an entire other federal government, paints a very incomplete picture. The military is 10% of all government spending in the US. Total government spending is around $7.2 trillion for 2018.
- mgkimsal 8y ago
  Going out on a limb here to bet that whatever website they did develop doesn't fare well on accessibility standards...
  - joejerryronnie 8y ago
    I bet their localization efforts are woefully lacking as well!
- rtkwe 8y ago
  Philadelphia's transit authority SEPTA has been rolling out a cashless fare system using RFID/NFC. It was supposed to be released in 2013 and still isn't complete. It cost $300 Million for Xerox to build which was twice as much as the initial budget. The kicker is their website used isn't even functional on mobile - it _literally_ uses nested tables for layout. A more efficient way to do this would be to use your phone for everything (using built in NFC) and an app to manage your fares. NFC still isn't 100% available on all smartphones and really wasn't whenever the system was designed. Particularly the cheaper smartphones used by lower income people are more likely to not have NFC even today. Back in 2010 when the system was first conceived (assuming based on 2013 release date) NFC was even rarer.
jimmyswimmy 8y ago
So I have a hard time believing the 100k price tag. They are not including everything here, which is typical. The government usually doesn't consider overhead costs because to the agency they are fixed. That's a multiple of 2-3. They're certainly depending on some existing developed technology which doesn't sound COTS to me, and I have no idea how much to value that at. Maybe another 100-500k unless it comes from a major prime in which case... 1M or more. The biggest thing increasing development costs for these kinds of projects is the fact that it is SO hard for development teams to get real understanding and feedback from the actual guys using the equipment. It takes a near act of God in many cases to get as close as they did in this story. That's what gives you an actual usable product at the end of the R&D effort and what saves the most money. Also I'd work for this team in a heartbeat. Sounds like fun even if I don't believe all their numbers.
- joejerryronnie 8y ago
  The $100K is probably just the cost of materials.
withdavidli 8y ago
Never understood the underpaying of highly qualified people in the govt. Making a sacrifice for your country in a high powered / representative position is one thing, but the rank and file? Billions are spent on defense contracts and old software, but when bringing on teams of people to revamp the system, they want these people to take more than a 50% pay cut. D.C. is an expensive place to live as well. If you think something is crucial for the country to advance and survive, don't be cheap about it.
- wmeredith 8y ago
  Eh, look at it as a filter for true believers. Mercenaries are dangerous, because they have a price.
  - Gustomaximus 8y ago
    It could also create disgruntled employees. Finding people feeling underpaid and undervalued must be prime candidates for foreign agents. While definity not an expert in this, every time I've read about traitors it seems money, sex or ideology drive the betrayal. And the first seems the most common in modern times.
    - rangibaby 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames > Ames later said that this financial pressure was what had first led him to consider spying for the Soviet Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen > He never indicated any political or ideological motive for his actions, telling the FBI after he was caught that his only motivation was profit > The FBI paid $7 million to a KGB agent to obtain a file on an anonymous mole, who the FBI later identified as Hanssen through fingerprint and voice analysis.
      - giancarlostoro 8y ago
        Sad they'd spend millions to catch moles but can't somehow afford to pay the crucial people the right sum. If you've got people who have access to valuable information consider their financial situation and adjust their compensation accordingly so they're never left wanting, your enemies will use the same damn information to make them turn on you... Why the hell not beat them to the punch? If they've got their expenses covered they've got no serious reason to commit treason one would think.
throwaway129386 8y ago
As someone who works for the Defense Department I found this article totally unsurprising. This sort of story is common. The question people should be asking is why does it take a 3-star general's blessing in order to get a team functioning computers that are usable for something besides Email and Microsoft Office. Another major obstacle that isn't touched on in this article is buying things. Typical timeline for purchasing anything through the normal mechanisms is minimum 4 months and 6-9 months isn't uncommon many years. Doesn't really matter how much it costs. So any group that wants to get things done on a reasonable timeline ends up putting a substantial portion of their budget on a contract who's sole purpose is to be a purchasing vehicle that circumvents the usual buying process.
- j9461701 8y ago
  I think this article does a wonderful job explaining why the military is built the way it is: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/08/the-command-and-control-management-method/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/08/the-command-and-co... If Command and Control is such a bad way to run a team, why does the military use it? This was explained to me in NCO school. I was in the Israeli paratroopers in 1986. Probably the worst paratrooper they ever had, now that I think back. There are several standing orders for soldiers. Number one: if you are in a mine field, freeze. Makes sense, right? It was drilled into you repeatedly during basic training. Every once in a while the instructor would shout out “Mine!” and everybody had to freeze just so you would get in the habit. Standing order number two: when attacked, run towards your attackers while shooting. The shooting makes them take cover so they can’t fire at you. Running towards them causes you to get closer to them, which makes it easier to aim at them, which makes it easier to kill them. This standing order makes a lot of sense, too. OK, now for the Interview Question. What do you do if you’re in a minefield, and people start shooting at you? This is not such a hypothetical situation; it’s a really annoying way to get caught in an ambush. The correct answer, it turns out, is that you ignore the minefield, and run towards the attackers while shooting. The rationale behind this is that if you freeze, they’ll pick you off one at a time until you’re all dead, but if you charge, only some of you will die by running over mines, so for the greater good, that’s what you have to do. The trouble is that no rational soldier would charge under such circumstances. Each individual soldier has an enormous incentive to cheat: freeze in place and let the other, more macho soldiers do the charging. It’s sort of like a Prisoners’ Dilemma. In life or death situations, the military needs to make sure that they can shout orders and soldiers will obey them even if the orders are suicidal. That means soldiers need to be programmed to be obedient in a way which is not really all that important for, say, a software company. You need a 3 star general's blessing to get computers because the whole military is built around authoritarianism and slavish obedience. It is built on those things because, in war, they are necessary. This has an unfortunate knock-on effect of making every decision take way too long and severely limits the autonomy of everyone in the chain of command, in often ridiculous ways. But if it comes down to being better at developing new tech, and winning a war, the army clearly has priority on the later rather than the former.
vonseel 8y ago
How to apply?
- TheJoYo 8y ago
  they require a clearance which can take 6 months to a year to complete. most the work is in DC area so being nearby helps.
BurnGpuBurn 8y ago
Nice advertisement for the Pentagon, I bet they're looking left and right for people with the right qualifications.
bb101 8y ago
Love the lead picture -- because, you know, you're obviously not in tech if you're not wearing a t-shirt, hoodie and jeans ensemble in an environment where they would otherwise be out of place.

127 points by ohjeez 8y ago

Great story that should trigger some thought in valley tech people. There are smart people all over the place who are difficult to reach.

black6 8y ago

> “The Army didn’t really know what to do with me,” he says. “So they sent me to Ranger School. I learned how to jump out of planes and carry rifles and stuff like that.” GROAN What branch did you go, fuckwit? That's what the Army wanted to do with you.

code_duck 8y ago
Sure, that’s why they sent him to Ranger School. I think the point is that it wasn’t making the most of his skills.
dang 8y ago
Please don't do this here.

grivescorbett 8y ago

3 orders of magnitude difference in cost... I think we’re having the wrong conversations about taxes in the US.

zachruss92 8y ago

I really enjoyed this article. The DDS is literally doing the same kind of things that the USDS is doing, but for military applications. Given the fact that the largest portion of our taxes goes towards defense spending, initiatives like create opportunities to allocate resources more efficiently, iterate with agility, and save a ton of money. When you look at DoD contractors, there is obviously a motivation on their end to have larger contracts with inflated budgets and prolonged timelines - they're businesses. On the flip side, a government agency has none of those motivations - they just want to save lives as quickly and affordably as possible. I am curious to see if these "lean" organizations will pop up in other parts of the federal/state/local governments. There are so many areas where better UX, logical efficiency, or inner-department communication could make people's lives easier or even save them: - In PA you need to sign up for a tax ID separately from filing articles of incorporation. Why can't the Department of State and Department of revenue's system sync up to create a tax ID at the time of incorporation? - Philadelphia's transit authority SEPTA has been rolling out a cashless fare system using RFID/NFC. It was supposed to be released in 2013 and still isn't complete. It cost $300 Million for Xerox to build which was twice as much as the initial budget. The kicker is their website used isn't even functional on mobile - it _literally_ uses nested tables for layout. A more efficient way to do this would be to use your phone for everything (using built in NFC) and an app to manage your fares.

arkis22 8y ago
The largest portion of our taxes does not go to defense spending. It goes to entitlements.
- wmeredith 8y ago
  Absolutely. 62% of the budget goes to social security, Medicare, and Medicaid. The rest is discretionary spending and a bit more than half of that goes to “defense”. Source: https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305789 https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown-3305...
  - adventured 8y ago
    That's just the federal budget. US taxes & spending include local + state + federal. Leaving off the other $3.x trillion in taxation & spending, nearly an entire other federal government, paints a very incomplete picture. The military is 10% of all government spending in the US. Total government spending is around $7.2 trillion for 2018.
mgkimsal 8y ago
Going out on a limb here to bet that whatever website they did develop doesn't fare well on accessibility standards...
- joejerryronnie 8y ago
  I bet their localization efforts are woefully lacking as well!
rtkwe 8y ago
Philadelphia's transit authority SEPTA has been rolling out a cashless fare system using RFID/NFC. It was supposed to be released in 2013 and still isn't complete. It cost $300 Million for Xerox to build which was twice as much as the initial budget. The kicker is their website used isn't even functional on mobile - it _literally_ uses nested tables for layout. A more efficient way to do this would be to use your phone for everything (using built in NFC) and an app to manage your fares. NFC still isn't 100% available on all smartphones and really wasn't whenever the system was designed. Particularly the cheaper smartphones used by lower income people are more likely to not have NFC even today. Back in 2010 when the system was first conceived (assuming based on 2013 release date) NFC was even rarer.

jimmyswimmy 8y ago

So I have a hard time believing the 100k price tag. They are not including everything here, which is typical. The government usually doesn't consider overhead costs because to the agency they are fixed. That's a multiple of 2-3. They're certainly depending on some existing developed technology which doesn't sound COTS to me, and I have no idea how much to value that at. Maybe another 100-500k unless it comes from a major prime in which case... 1M or more. The biggest thing increasing development costs for these kinds of projects is the fact that it is SO hard for development teams to get real understanding and feedback from the actual guys using the equipment. It takes a near act of God in many cases to get as close as they did in this story. That's what gives you an actual usable product at the end of the R&D effort and what saves the most money. Also I'd work for this team in a heartbeat. Sounds like fun even if I don't believe all their numbers.

joejerryronnie 8y ago
The $100K is probably just the cost of materials.

withdavidli 8y ago

Never understood the underpaying of highly qualified people in the govt. Making a sacrifice for your country in a high powered / representative position is one thing, but the rank and file? Billions are spent on defense contracts and old software, but when bringing on teams of people to revamp the system, they want these people to take more than a 50% pay cut. D.C. is an expensive place to live as well. If you think something is crucial for the country to advance and survive, don't be cheap about it.

wmeredith 8y ago
Eh, look at it as a filter for true believers. Mercenaries are dangerous, because they have a price.
- Gustomaximus 8y ago
  It could also create disgruntled employees. Finding people feeling underpaid and undervalued must be prime candidates for foreign agents. While definity not an expert in this, every time I've read about traitors it seems money, sex or ideology drive the betrayal. And the first seems the most common in modern times.
  - rangibaby 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldrich_Ames > Ames later said that this financial pressure was what had first led him to consider spying for the Soviet Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen > He never indicated any political or ideological motive for his actions, telling the FBI after he was caught that his only motivation was profit > The FBI paid $7 million to a KGB agent to obtain a file on an anonymous mole, who the FBI later identified as Hanssen through fingerprint and voice analysis.
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      Sad they'd spend millions to catch moles but can't somehow afford to pay the crucial people the right sum. If you've got people who have access to valuable information consider their financial situation and adjust their compensation accordingly so they're never left wanting, your enemies will use the same damn information to make them turn on you... Why the hell not beat them to the punch? If they've got their expenses covered they've got no serious reason to commit treason one would think.

throwaway129386 8y ago

As someone who works for the Defense Department I found this article totally unsurprising. This sort of story is common. The question people should be asking is why does it take a 3-star general's blessing in order to get a team functioning computers that are usable for something besides Email and Microsoft Office. Another major obstacle that isn't touched on in this article is buying things. Typical timeline for purchasing anything through the normal mechanisms is minimum 4 months and 6-9 months isn't uncommon many years. Doesn't really matter how much it costs. So any group that wants to get things done on a reasonable timeline ends up putting a substantial portion of their budget on a contract who's sole purpose is to be a purchasing vehicle that circumvents the usual buying process.

j9461701 8y ago
I think this article does a wonderful job explaining why the military is built the way it is: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/08/the-command-and-control-management-method/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/08/08/the-command-and-co... If Command and Control is such a bad way to run a team, why does the military use it? This was explained to me in NCO school. I was in the Israeli paratroopers in 1986. Probably the worst paratrooper they ever had, now that I think back. There are several standing orders for soldiers. Number one: if you are in a mine field, freeze. Makes sense, right? It was drilled into you repeatedly during basic training. Every once in a while the instructor would shout out “Mine!” and everybody had to freeze just so you would get in the habit. Standing order number two: when attacked, run towards your attackers while shooting. The shooting makes them take cover so they can’t fire at you. Running towards them causes you to get closer to them, which makes it easier to aim at them, which makes it easier to kill them. This standing order makes a lot of sense, too. OK, now for the Interview Question. What do you do if you’re in a minefield, and people start shooting at you? This is not such a hypothetical situation; it’s a really annoying way to get caught in an ambush. The correct answer, it turns out, is that you ignore the minefield, and run towards the attackers while shooting. The rationale behind this is that if you freeze, they’ll pick you off one at a time until you’re all dead, but if you charge, only some of you will die by running over mines, so for the greater good, that’s what you have to do. The trouble is that no rational soldier would charge under such circumstances. Each individual soldier has an enormous incentive to cheat: freeze in place and let the other, more macho soldiers do the charging. It’s sort of like a Prisoners’ Dilemma. In life or death situations, the military needs to make sure that they can shout orders and soldiers will obey them even if the orders are suicidal. That means soldiers need to be programmed to be obedient in a way which is not really all that important for, say, a software company. You need a 3 star general's blessing to get computers because the whole military is built around authoritarianism and slavish obedience. It is built on those things because, in war, they are necessary. This has an unfortunate knock-on effect of making every decision take way too long and severely limits the autonomy of everyone in the chain of command, in often ridiculous ways. But if it comes down to being better at developing new tech, and winning a war, the army clearly has priority on the later rather than the former.

vonseel 8y ago

How to apply?

TheJoYo 8y ago
they require a clearance which can take 6 months to a year to complete. most the work is in DC area so being nearby helps.

BurnGpuBurn 8y ago

Nice advertisement for the Pentagon, I bet they're looking left and right for people with the right qualifications.

bb101 8y ago

Love the lead picture -- because, you know, you're obviously not in tech if you're not wearing a t-shirt, hoodie and jeans ensemble in an environment where they would otherwise be out of place.