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Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg
- Rjevski 8y agoNot an expert in German legislation, but is this even legal? Seems like those people weren't convicted nor even suspected of crimes. I hope the victims fight back and get adequate compensation.
- Tomte 8y agoOf course it is. Raids can also be at witnesses' places if it is necessary to get the evidence. Otherwise I'd simply stow the bodies in my friends' cellars.
- erikb 8y agoBut for raids there needs to be reason. I think something like the second Iraq war cannot happen inside a legal system without repercussion, at least as long as the legal system still functions.
- Tomte 8y agoSure, but none of us have any information how this came to pass. So I limited my reply to the general question asked.
- vuln 8y agoNah you can drop 26 thousand bombs without ever being at 'war' https://www.cfr.org/blog/how-many-bombs-did-united-states-drop-2016 https://www.cfr.org/blog/how-many-bombs-did-united-states-dr...
- erikb 8y agoI think it quite unlikely that police will come to your home and drop 26 thousand bombs. Just based on my own personal experience, tho.
- radisb 8y agoHelp me understand as I am not living in Germany: Authorities can search and seize property of any civilian without a warrant if said civilian is just a witness? If yes, then who decides and how is it decided that someone is a witness? If for example I happen to stand in front of my window and witness a crime being committed in the street, they could search my house without any consent or warrant?
- Tomte 8y agoIt is highly probable that there was a warrant. Why do you claim otherwise, have I overlooked such reporting in the article or elsewhere?
- YouAreGreat 8y agoFrom the other submitted link[1], we learn that yes, there was a warrant, but limitations were boldly ignored: > The warrant lists specific items. This was not respected. Assuming that fact, was it legal? [1] https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-raids-of-zwiebelfreunde-at-various-locations-in-germany.html https://blog.torservers.net/20180704/coordinated-raids-of-zw...
- Tomte 8y agoProbably not in its entirety. But that discussion is pretty useless, since our version of the exclusionary rule is more toothless than an American could possibly imagine. Basically, everything found can be used in court.
- lexapro 8y agoThey need a warrant (unless there is imminent danger).
- jarfil 8y agoLike the imminent danger of a 3D model of a nuclear bomb exploding. Got it.
- 8y ago
- DoctorOetker 8y agoif it was a murder case, I'd agree with you, only time will tell?
- blattimwind 8y agoThe gist of it: Someone did something probably illegal and put a @riseup mail in as the contact info. Police looked at riseup (Not-in-Germany) and found some people (In-Germany) forwarding donation money to riseup. Police and state prosecutor somehow conclude that these donations might be relevant and seizes them (and the usual bycatch). -- Now my commentary: On the face of it this seems overblown and rather out of proportion. To me it looks like some AG was looking for an excuse to raid these left-wing organizations. It doesn't have to be that way, but I have a hard time imagining how some leftist hateblog I've never heard of before justifies such a large scale raid of (presumably) at best tangentially related entities. It's a somewhat different story of course if it turns out that the backers of the blog have actually been raided as well as part of these raids.
- pennaMan 8y agoI'm sure, as the article says, if they search every @gmail user because of one @gmail criminal they will eventually search the criminal too. How is that a different story?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- blattimwind 8y agoThey didn't search every @gmail user, they searched what would be roughly equal to (in gmail's commercial case) a payment provider for gmail, and people loosely related to such a provider. It's a flawed comparison, obviously.
- clacke2 8y agoYeah. The proper analogy is: Somebody doing something they didn't like had a gmail address, and they raided the internal servers of Google's German sales office.
- throwwwafgk 8y agoWhatever a "leftist hateblog" (!) might be, that description doesn't seem to be fitting here.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y agowow they had chemicals (for 3d printing) and they were building a bomb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8 /s
- dangerbird2 8y agoThey could shoot someone's eye out!
- fcDVb7R6 8y agolol the F-Bomb was cool
- donquichotte 8y agoFun fact: the police found a "3d printed, bomb shaped object" and put it into an evidence bag with the label "offence: causing an explosive blast". The object can be seen in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8
- erric 8y agoThat looks incrediblely dangerous. They should be locked up for life for possessing such terrible means of mass destruction.
- madmulita 8y agoAt least they found "some", imagine the scandal if they finally couldn't show any evidence of weapons of mass destruction.....
- gremlinsinc 8y agoWE can only hope they don't start a war to find those WMD's...
- singularity2001 8y agoto be more precise, police identified it as "presumed model of an atomic bomb". But the criminal offence is spot on: http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1310464-860_poster_16x9-kdvc-1310464.jpg http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1310464-860_poster_16x9-...
- ckastner 8y agoIncredible. It is obvious that they will not be able to show intent beyond reasonable doubt as to this "crime" (they even acknowledge it is just a model), proceeding regardless is just farcical. Amusingly enough, they labeled it "mutmaßliches Modell einer Atombombe" (presumptive model of an atomic bomb) with the crime being "Herbeiführen einer Sprengstoffexplosion" (causing an explosion), but the relevant norm [1] explicitly excludes nuclear explosions. [1] https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/308.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/308.html
- niklasd 8y agoA bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU party, which is currently also in the (international) headlines for the ongoing immigration fight, since they are part of the federal government with Merkel (they are taking a very though standpoint on immigration). Just recently this party introduced a new police law in Bavaria which is considered to be the toughest in Germany, making it considerably more easy for Police to read your mail, block your bank account, to surveil you etc. While this is not directly related to the CCC raid, the raid was ordered by the Munich Attorney General. For Germans, it is not surprising that such an act comes from the Bavarian justice system.
- _ak 8y agoThe. CSU. Is. Not. Conservative. Call them what they are: a right-wing populist law-and-order party that is only active in the state of Bavaria, but terrorises the rest of Germany with their reactionary and regressive policies.
- Tomte 8y agoAnd Munich is traditionally governed by the center-left SPD. I find your attempt to inject party politics in this a diversion. Just because the state government is well to the right and turning populist, it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same.
- PythonicAlpha 8y ago> it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same. In theory. In practice, many entities which work even in judiciary are influenced by party politics. The current 2nd mayor of Munich is from the CSU -- so the winds have changed. The CSU is (since the last election) much more important than before and it seems that the SPD is massively weakened in Munich. This is also the reason for throwing out Linux It systems of Munich.
- fcDVb7R6 8y agoAha then it must be more of a german way of checking out what these left leaning privacy organizations up to
- khabaal 8y agoIts especially chilling, because in germany, we dont have the food of the poisonous tree doctrine. So even if the police searches those places illegaly, if they find something else while conducting the search, lets say small amount of drugs, they will prosecute you for that.
- andai 8y agoPerhaps that was the intention here?
- ethbro 8y agoSmall note, it's usually rendered as "fruit" of the poisonous tree. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree
- jwilk 8y agoNon-mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree
- L_226 8y agoFYI I made a small chrome extension to auto-redirect links like this: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/demobile/poikbhnlblolailelfnhbdifkdhhmikm https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/demobile/poikbhnlb...
- oblio 8y agoFor someone completely out of the loop, since this jumped to #1 on HN: What's Zweibelfreunde? What's OpenLab? Why did the police raid them? Why should I care? And more importantly, why does HN care so much, apparently? :)
- kevingrahl 8y agoRead the article goddamnit this isn’t reddit..
- rtcoolaid 8y agoDid you read the article? What do you think? I reddit.
- BuildTheRobots 8y agoAs of the last few months, one is hard pressed to tell the difference.
- oblio 8y agoI clicked the link and it was in German... I guess they changed it. They've also changed the HN title at least a few times.
- Mashimo 8y agoHere is an english statement from CCC that explains a lot: https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2018/hausdurchsuchungen-bei-vereinsvorstanden-der-zwiebelfreunde-und-im-openlab-augsburg https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2018/hausdurchsuchungen-bei-ve...
- oblio 8y agoThanks, they've also linked directly to the English version, now.
- fcDVb7R6 8y agoThis reminds of an era which we will soon see around the world. Today fighting for your privacy is not a choice, it is a need.
- stuaxo 8y agoJohn Titor?
- fcDVb7R6 8y agoThis seems a malicious ruse to intimidate hacker activism
- itchyjunk 8y agoIs there an Electronic Frontier Foundation equivalent in Germany? If not, what stops police from conducting searches like this in future? (If this can even be shown as illegal in a court.) I doubt individuals or even small organization can properly fight legal battles.
- Mashimo 8y ago>Is there an Electronic Frontier Foundation equivalent in Germany? The CCC is a bit like that. And in this raid they searched offices that where also used by CCC. And they do have the resources and willingness to fight this.
- singularity2001 8y agoIronically the CCC (Chaos Computer Club) is roughly the equivalent of the EFF. And they were raided (too).
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- oaiey 8y agoLike said it is the CCC (Chaos Computer Club). I am pretty sure they will bring this to court. They have the resources and the will to do so. The CCC won already much bigger cases.
- zorkw4rg 8y agoThere are also a ton of websites from german nazis (I mean common folk nazis, not institutional nazis like the CSU) that use webhosting in the USA to circumvent the more restrictive free-speech in germany. Not like thats pursued of course. Unfortunately a common sentiment in germany is that left and right extremism is equally pernicious, or even worse people tend to be more annoyed by the left burning luxury cars than they are with nazis burning refugees.
- justinclift 8y agoUgh. That confiscated equipment... much of it that gets returned (eventually) won't be suitable for using on Tor/Tails development. There's no telling what changes will have been done to it. :(
- yAnonymous 8y agoThese same people are calling others Nazis for sharing non-radical ideas with conservative parties. So, share a platform with left extremists and... you get what you give, I guess. This would be a good time to reflect on how they treat others.
- Mashimo 8y ago>These same people are calling others Nazis for sharing non-radical ideas with conservative parties. Who? The CCC or Zwiebelfreunde? Can you give me a link? Edit: Oh, you are the one with the flagged comment in this thread.
- yAnonymous 8y ago>Oh, you are the one with the flagged comment in this thread. Which perfectly illustrates my point. I haven't said anything offensive. People are treating extremism differently depending on which side they're on and that's stupid. HN is very far left, so this opinion is unpopular.
- Mashimo 8y agoIt's because you say "they" are extremist without saying who you actually are talking about. Then you start a new comment with "These same people are calling others Nazi" Who? When? Where?
- yAnonymous 8y ago>Who? When? Where? The CCC and most of its members - and they don't exactly hide it. The CCC founder was on the far left and that's exactly the course it took. They have talks by Antifa activists. They have combined CCC and Antifa logos hanging in their centers: https://twitter.com/DandelionInaBox/status/901474627834318848 https://twitter.com/DandelionInaBox/status/90147462783431884... German Antifa are about as extremist as it gets and they are rightly watched by the state police. They threaten and attack citizens and police for political reasons and do about everything else that's considered extremist. tl;dr: Left extremism is openly accepted by the CCC. Now you can downvote this post too, but these are verifiable facts.
- whyever 8y agoI found this part the most disturbing: > While searching the premises of the board members in Augsburg, Jena, Dresden, and Berlin, the police – on their own accord –decided to extend the search to premises also used by members of the CCC: the OpenLab in Augsburg. Here the officers were confronted with hackers in their natural habitat: substances to clean and etch circuit boards as well as hair bleach. After interpreting the contents of a whiteboard as a bomb making manual, the officers then went on to accuse random people present at the hackerspace of plotting a bombing attack. Three people were arrested on the spot and the hackerspace was subsequently searched without a court order and without any witnesses. So working on circuit boards is being construed as plotting a bombing attack? Really?
- tomtimtall 8y agoThe police aren’t THAT dumb. They where likely given marching orders to provide plausible dinability and cease as much or hardware as possible with the belief that they can find something after the fact that justifies their actions in public oppinion.
- hi5eyes 8y agoThe police aren’t THAT dumb. They were likely given marching orders to provide plausible deniability and seize as much or hardware as possible with the belief that they can find something after the fact that justifies their actions in public opinion.
- bmer 8y agoYou've re-written another comment so that it follows all standard rules for spelling. But to what end? Certainly not to make it intelligible, as the original comment was intelligible regardless of spelling errors. If not to make it intelligible, then perhaps to engage in one-up-man-ship? But since feeding the ego tends to be a zero sum game, at what cost? Perhaps the original poster has one of a whole host of conditions which make it difficult to reproduce spellings as per a standard. Perhaps the original poster learned the language primarily through hearing, rather than reading. Who knows? So what did your one-up-man-ship gain us, the community? Nothing of value (since good spelling is merely indicative of background, rather than capability), but perhaps something of harm, since you might have hurt an otherwise valuable contributor who may not have control over how they spell. In short, your comment is a net detriment to the community.
- majewsky 8y agoAfter my initial outrage, I calmed down and looked at this dryly. What if the main issue is that the prosecutors just do not have appropriate mental models of hackers? The crucial step is that they wanted to get ahold of Riseup, a mail provider (and hence, in their view, a commercial entity). Then they find those German people (whom they can get ahold of) who collect money for Riseup. I find it very likely that they just could not imagine someone collecting money for a commercial entity without being financially and personally intertwined with said entity. For example, if you see someone collecting money for Coca-Cola, wouldn't you think that they're paid by Coca-Cola, no matter how much they insisted they're "just fans"? (Note: This argument only concerns the original warrant. What the policemen did at the hackerspachackerspace was just preposterous.)
- phicoh 8y agoIf you are directly or indirectly paid by a company, then it is unlikely that you have sufficient amount of operational information at home to warrant searching your home. Worse, if you suspect that somebody's role is related to fund raising then it very unlikely that that person has detailed operational information. To the extent that the police is aware that riseup is a US-based organisation, then any kind of forced cooperation the German police would get from the people outside the US would unlikely to have any effect, because a US-based organisation is likely to only respond to requests from a US police organisation. So this kind of action can only be explained by criminal carelessness or a goal to intimidate.
- Semaphor 8y agoI think you are right. This seems very probable. Thank you for posting your thoughts on this, I wouldn't have made the same connection by myself.
- tomjen3 8y agoI am not terribly interested in the warrent, but for the other part, it seems nazies are going to nazi.
- rrobukef 8y agoAdditionally, while Coca-Cola is a company, Riseup is a non-profit, Openlab / onionfriends are also non-profits. They have volunteers, with a mindset shared by both groups. I assume volunteers will often help at multiple non-profits (spin-offs, etc.). Starting with the people that already have a connection and shared mindset is logical.
- yAnonymous 8y agoThe CCC are in no position to complain. They have become too political and openly support left extremist groups. They allow talks by Antifa members and they have Antifa flags in their centers [1]. These are people who threaten and practice violence for political reasons and are watched by state police. [1] https://twitter.com/DandelionInaBox/status/901474627834318848 https://twitter.com/DandelionInaBox/status/90147462783431884...
- klez 8y ago> They have become too political Become? The CCC has always been a political organization.
- Tepix 8y agoThere were additional police raids carried out in Dortmund, Germany last night. They were targeting a server hosted at Wissenschaftsladen (free.de) but ended up searching other unrelated offices, including the rooms of CCC Dortmund. https://heise.de/-4100194 https://heise.de/-4100194