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Why does the blame always lie with "politicians"? That's unhelpfully reductionist... we are a democracy. Businesses, private citizens, and representives all com

Why does the blame always lie with "politicians"? That's unhelpfully reductionist... we are a democracy. Businesses, private citizens, and representives all come together to define our public policy. Those "perverse" tax incentives were a reasonable compromise between voters and businesses within a state. The perversion only exists at the interstate level, so which politician is "at fault"? The Washington legislature, responsible for all of Washington? Individual WA representatives, who get one vote regardless of their constituent's distance from the border? Or is it on the Oregon side? If either state copied the other, there's no problem - but which one "wins", and how do those changes get implemented?

amelius 8y ago
The politicians at fault are the ones who were without foresight and allowed the wrong incentives to exist for local politicians.
analog31 8y ago
I live in a one-party gerrymandered state, not a democracy. It makes perfect sense in my case to blame the politicians.
- tajen 8y ago
  For those unfamiliarwith gerrymandering, I highly recommend the John Oliver explanation, a humorist of actual facts, showing maps and tactics of politicians that are borderline criminal. https://youtu.be/A-4dIImaodQ https://youtu.be/A-4dIImaodQ
  - analog31 8y ago
    Amusingly, my friend is a high school math teacher, and had to find topics to keep the kids interested in between the AP test and the end of the school year. So he had an exercise where the kids used a software program to come up with different strategies for gerrymandering our state.
slg 8y ago
Politicians are the ones responsible for reaching the compromise between citizens (and businesses are just a collection of citizens). If you do not like the compromises reached, you should work harder to convince the politicians to change their mind. Attacking the citizens you disagree with gets nothing accomplished. That is how we got into this crazy polarized political climate in which a solid third of this country thinks a different third are either fascists or Marxists. The politicians are ultimately accountable to their constituents. The people of Walla Walla likely have different opinions on sales tax than the people of Redmond. If the politicians don't represent those opinions then they should be voted out. If they do represent those opinions, it is simply a numbers game from there. If your side loses, that is just how democracy works. That applies to every level of government from the local up through the federal. It applies to individuals the same way it applies to businesses.
- analog31 8y ago
  If you do not like the compromises reached, you should work harder to convince the politicians to change their mind. Attacking the citizens you disagree with gets nothing accomplished. That is how we got into this crazy polarized political climate in which a solid third of this country thinks a different third are either fascists or Marxists. While this is true to some extent, changing the minds of politicians sometimes requires changing the minds of voters.
- jakelazaroff 8y ago
  Customers are a business's constituency. Whether we want to change the behavior of a politician or a business, ultimately it's done by garnering the support of some threshold of our fellow citizens. There's no real basis for blaming politicians rather than businesses for deals like these.
- losteric 8y ago
  I am talking about complaints with the elections of other districts. My representative fairly represents my district's sentiment. The policies we want are blocked by neighboring district representatives - who also fairly represent their districts. The compromises tend to land squarely in between the extremes. If we're not happy with the compromise, the answer is to try moving the opposing side closer... which means convincing citizens of that district to change their mind. Citizen discourse is the core of effective democracies. Elections merely represent public sentiment - peer to peer discussions are how we change the status quo. America's problem is we seem to have forgotten how to talk about politics. Even your language reflects that... no suggestion of civil debate, just a false dichotomy of surrendering to the numbers game or "attacking" other citizens. Insults are an attack, but genuinely challenging beliefs is not an attack. My neighbor and I may disagree, but we aren't enemies - we are both citizens that want what's best for our family and friends. Talking politics is how we figure out what that means. Those discussions between private citizens is the decentralized process of moving a democracy forward.
Mirioron 8y ago
>Why does the blame always lie with "politicians"? That's unhelpfully reductionist... we are a democracy. Businesses, private citizens, and representives all come together to define our public policy. You're right. Technically the fault lies in the voters for voting in those politicians. In practice, it's the politicians that fail the voters though. That's literally what the politicians are voted to do, but they obviously operate under their own incentives, which is to get reelected.
- llampx 8y ago
  If I had a penny for every time a politician came into office and broke campaign promises...
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    If you are counting the elections that you have participated in you'd probably have a few dollars.
specialist 8y ago
Paul Allen fully funded Ref 48, spending ~$5m to convince the taxpayers to buy him a stadium.

amelius 8y ago

The politicians at fault are the ones who were without foresight and allowed the wrong incentives to exist for local politicians.

analog31 8y ago

I live in a one-party gerrymandered state, not a democracy. It makes perfect sense in my case to blame the politicians.

tajen 8y ago
For those unfamiliarwith gerrymandering, I highly recommend the John Oliver explanation, a humorist of actual facts, showing maps and tactics of politicians that are borderline criminal. https://youtu.be/A-4dIImaodQ https://youtu.be/A-4dIImaodQ
- analog31 8y ago
  Amusingly, my friend is a high school math teacher, and had to find topics to keep the kids interested in between the AP test and the end of the school year. So he had an exercise where the kids used a software program to come up with different strategies for gerrymandering our state.

slg 8y ago

Politicians are the ones responsible for reaching the compromise between citizens (and businesses are just a collection of citizens). If you do not like the compromises reached, you should work harder to convince the politicians to change their mind. Attacking the citizens you disagree with gets nothing accomplished. That is how we got into this crazy polarized political climate in which a solid third of this country thinks a different third are either fascists or Marxists. The politicians are ultimately accountable to their constituents. The people of Walla Walla likely have different opinions on sales tax than the people of Redmond. If the politicians don't represent those opinions then they should be voted out. If they do represent those opinions, it is simply a numbers game from there. If your side loses, that is just how democracy works. That applies to every level of government from the local up through the federal. It applies to individuals the same way it applies to businesses.

analog31 8y ago
If you do not like the compromises reached, you should work harder to convince the politicians to change their mind. Attacking the citizens you disagree with gets nothing accomplished. That is how we got into this crazy polarized political climate in which a solid third of this country thinks a different third are either fascists or Marxists. While this is true to some extent, changing the minds of politicians sometimes requires changing the minds of voters.
jakelazaroff 8y ago
Customers are a business's constituency. Whether we want to change the behavior of a politician or a business, ultimately it's done by garnering the support of some threshold of our fellow citizens. There's no real basis for blaming politicians rather than businesses for deals like these.
losteric 8y ago
I am talking about complaints with the elections of other districts. My representative fairly represents my district's sentiment. The policies we want are blocked by neighboring district representatives - who also fairly represent their districts. The compromises tend to land squarely in between the extremes. If we're not happy with the compromise, the answer is to try moving the opposing side closer... which means convincing citizens of that district to change their mind. Citizen discourse is the core of effective democracies. Elections merely represent public sentiment - peer to peer discussions are how we change the status quo. America's problem is we seem to have forgotten how to talk about politics. Even your language reflects that... no suggestion of civil debate, just a false dichotomy of surrendering to the numbers game or "attacking" other citizens. Insults are an attack, but genuinely challenging beliefs is not an attack. My neighbor and I may disagree, but we aren't enemies - we are both citizens that want what's best for our family and friends. Talking politics is how we figure out what that means. Those discussions between private citizens is the decentralized process of moving a democracy forward.

Mirioron 8y ago

>Why does the blame always lie with "politicians"? That's unhelpfully reductionist... we are a democracy. Businesses, private citizens, and representives all come together to define our public policy. You're right. Technically the fault lies in the voters for voting in those politicians. In practice, it's the politicians that fail the voters though. That's literally what the politicians are voted to do, but they obviously operate under their own incentives, which is to get reelected.

llampx 8y ago
If I had a penny for every time a politician came into office and broke campaign promises...
- maxerickson 8y ago
  If you are counting the elections that you have participated in you'd probably have a few dollars.

specialist 8y ago

Paul Allen fully funded Ref 48, spending ~$5m to convince the taxpayers to buy him a stadium.