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> I often wonder what civilization would be like if adults asked the same question to themselves and then lead a life where they focused on that instead of bein

> I often wonder what civilization would be like if adults asked the same question to themselves and then lead a life where they focused on that instead of being pressured into "making a living". I imagine we'd have an abundance of pilots, and actors and a severe lack of toilet cleaners.

Forge36 8y ago
I don't think it would be as extreme as a full career change. There exists a very large startup cost to becoming a pilot. I'd think to measure the number of people motivated to those as "failed actors", people who tried to make their career as an actor but eventually moved on to other things. Isn't that what we already have today?
hutzlibu 8y ago
"and a severe lack of toilet cleaners." not a problem because we probably would have selfcleaning toilets by then by default.
- oblio 8y ago
  Toilets built by the underemployed pilots and actors? :)
  - herrokan 8y ago
    You know not everyone is interested in becoming a pilot or an actor, right?
    - Omnus 8y ago
      You know you're missing the point, right? There are some jobs that people just don't tend to enjoy or find meaningful. You can incentive people to do them by paying them lots of money, but that doesn't necessarily make people happy or fulfilled while doing the work, which was the original topic of this discussion.
- DanBC 8y ago
  We already have some for public loos. They're somewhat terrifying cubicles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fw9hxMCBdU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fw9hxMCBdU
Kluny 8y ago
Personally I think there are more people than you think who would be perfectly happy to clean toilets as their contribution, so long as they were compensated fairly for it.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  That would mean raising prices, and thus the toilet cleaner him/herself wouldn't be able to buy the things that you want them to reach anyways.
  - chongli 8y ago
    Yes, and then pay the toilet cleaners even more, raise prices again, and so on. A virtuous upward cycle which would eventually bring their lives more in line with everyone else's.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      How did it bring someone's life in line with everyone else when they're still unable to buy the things other people can buy? Do you realise that once the cleaner is more expensive than a Japanese toilet is to maintain, the cleaner will be fired and will have nothing instead?
      - chongli 8y ago
        So the toilet cleaner retrains to become the toilet repair person? What's wrong with that? We all get better toilets out of the deal, too. The public bathroom still needs cleaning itself, though. Unless you're suggesting that a Japanese toilet is a robot that cleans the whole bathroom? That would be interesting!
        TomMarius 8y ago
        > So the toilet cleaner retrains to become the toilet repair person? I once had a summer job as a manager of this issue - my job was to find a cleaning company and assure quality in one company building (roughly 500 toilets, around 30 cleaners). From my experience, these people were unable to properly do their jobs (not the cleaning part, stuff like opening windows so the toilet doesn't smell like acid and actually dries, not forgetting to clean something...). None of these people would be able to or would want to invest the time to learn to repair the incredibly complex Japanese toilets - they will rather live on welfare. Of course it's anecdotal and I'm sure that a lot of people will do just what you said - most certainly not everyone though, and there won't even be place for everyone, rather like every hundredth at most. > Unless you're suggesting that a Japanese toilet is a robot that cleans the whole bathroom? Yes, there are "toilet boxes" that can clean the whole thing including floor, ceiling and walls.
tqkxzugoaupvwqr 8y ago
The salary of cleaners would rise until enough people are willing to do the job or it is more profitable to install self-cleaning toilets.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Why do pilots and cleaners need different wages, Is there something a pilot needs to live comfortably that somehow a cleaner doesn't?
  - MrStonedOne 8y ago
    The confusion here is because you are mixing up "wage", "a living", and "lifestyle cost". Wage is compensation for labor and follows all of the normal market rules of supply and demand. A living relates to the amount of money needed to pay for them to live. Rent, food, etc. "lifestyle cost" is the above plus non-necessities. Wage has zero relation to a living, and lifestyle cost. Your wage doesn't go up just because you want to spend more money at brothels in nevada, and it doesn't go down just because you stopped needing to spend as much money on food because you got a costco membership. Or to put it simply, the rate of your labor has zero relation to your wants and needs.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Hmm, so minimum wages don't exist and when the cost of living rises wages never adapt to accommodate it. I think these concepts are far more linked than you suggest. >Wage is compensation for labor and follows all of the normal market rules of supply and demand. // It only follows those rules because those able to influence it have brought in that regime -- USA has been wetting its corporate pants over the idea that the hierarchy of wages might be broken by communism for some time. (Not to say communism is good, just it amuses me how they had to demonise communists - coming over here with their egalitarianism, trying to treat everyone as a person, embodying the maxim of 'being created equal' - in order to maintain capitalism and keep the peons/proles in their place. I digress. Wages can reflect a person's worth to the owners of a company (they're worth X, because they bring us X+Y leading to profit) ... OR they can reflect that people are "equal before God" and that one person's time is worth the same as another. But, my time is worth more than their's -- well great, you can benefit society all the more. But, no-one will work unless you use greed, selfishness, subjugation of others to motivate them ... well let's just keep mass murdering each other every 50 years or so we can keep the corporate masters in the style they're accustomed too.
jasonkostempski 8y ago
Maybe that would lead to all adults cleaning up their own shit so that "toilet cleaner" wouldn't have to be someones job title. I think that might be the least likely of all the hypothetical outcomes though :/

Forge36 8y ago

I don't think it would be as extreme as a full career change. There exists a very large startup cost to becoming a pilot. I'd think to measure the number of people motivated to those as "failed actors", people who tried to make their career as an actor but eventually moved on to other things. Isn't that what we already have today?

hutzlibu 8y ago

"and a severe lack of toilet cleaners." not a problem because we probably would have selfcleaning toilets by then by default.

oblio 8y ago
Toilets built by the underemployed pilots and actors? :)
- herrokan 8y ago
  You know not everyone is interested in becoming a pilot or an actor, right?
  - Omnus 8y ago
    You know you're missing the point, right? There are some jobs that people just don't tend to enjoy or find meaningful. You can incentive people to do them by paying them lots of money, but that doesn't necessarily make people happy or fulfilled while doing the work, which was the original topic of this discussion.
DanBC 8y ago
We already have some for public loos. They're somewhat terrifying cubicles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fw9hxMCBdU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fw9hxMCBdU

Kluny 8y ago

Personally I think there are more people than you think who would be perfectly happy to clean toilets as their contribution, so long as they were compensated fairly for it.

TomMarius 8y ago
That would mean raising prices, and thus the toilet cleaner him/herself wouldn't be able to buy the things that you want them to reach anyways.
- chongli 8y ago
  Yes, and then pay the toilet cleaners even more, raise prices again, and so on. A virtuous upward cycle which would eventually bring their lives more in line with everyone else's.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    How did it bring someone's life in line with everyone else when they're still unable to buy the things other people can buy? Do you realise that once the cleaner is more expensive than a Japanese toilet is to maintain, the cleaner will be fired and will have nothing instead?
    - chongli 8y ago
      So the toilet cleaner retrains to become the toilet repair person? What's wrong with that? We all get better toilets out of the deal, too. The public bathroom still needs cleaning itself, though. Unless you're suggesting that a Japanese toilet is a robot that cleans the whole bathroom? That would be interesting!
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        > So the toilet cleaner retrains to become the toilet repair person? I once had a summer job as a manager of this issue - my job was to find a cleaning company and assure quality in one company building (roughly 500 toilets, around 30 cleaners). From my experience, these people were unable to properly do their jobs (not the cleaning part, stuff like opening windows so the toilet doesn't smell like acid and actually dries, not forgetting to clean something...). None of these people would be able to or would want to invest the time to learn to repair the incredibly complex Japanese toilets - they will rather live on welfare. Of course it's anecdotal and I'm sure that a lot of people will do just what you said - most certainly not everyone though, and there won't even be place for everyone, rather like every hundredth at most. > Unless you're suggesting that a Japanese toilet is a robot that cleans the whole bathroom? Yes, there are "toilet boxes" that can clean the whole thing including floor, ceiling and walls.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 8y ago

The salary of cleaners would rise until enough people are willing to do the job or it is more profitable to install self-cleaning toilets.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Why do pilots and cleaners need different wages, Is there something a pilot needs to live comfortably that somehow a cleaner doesn't?
- MrStonedOne 8y ago
  The confusion here is because you are mixing up "wage", "a living", and "lifestyle cost". Wage is compensation for labor and follows all of the normal market rules of supply and demand. A living relates to the amount of money needed to pay for them to live. Rent, food, etc. "lifestyle cost" is the above plus non-necessities. Wage has zero relation to a living, and lifestyle cost. Your wage doesn't go up just because you want to spend more money at brothels in nevada, and it doesn't go down just because you stopped needing to spend as much money on food because you got a costco membership. Or to put it simply, the rate of your labor has zero relation to your wants and needs.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Hmm, so minimum wages don't exist and when the cost of living rises wages never adapt to accommodate it. I think these concepts are far more linked than you suggest. >Wage is compensation for labor and follows all of the normal market rules of supply and demand. // It only follows those rules because those able to influence it have brought in that regime -- USA has been wetting its corporate pants over the idea that the hierarchy of wages might be broken by communism for some time. (Not to say communism is good, just it amuses me how they had to demonise communists - coming over here with their egalitarianism, trying to treat everyone as a person, embodying the maxim of 'being created equal' - in order to maintain capitalism and keep the peons/proles in their place. I digress. Wages can reflect a person's worth to the owners of a company (they're worth X, because they bring us X+Y leading to profit) ... OR they can reflect that people are "equal before God" and that one person's time is worth the same as another. But, my time is worth more than their's -- well great, you can benefit society all the more. But, no-one will work unless you use greed, selfishness, subjugation of others to motivate them ... well let's just keep mass murdering each other every 50 years or so we can keep the corporate masters in the style they're accustomed too.

jasonkostempski 8y ago

Maybe that would lead to all adults cleaning up their own shit so that "toilet cleaner" wouldn't have to be someones job title. I think that might be the least likely of all the hypothetical outcomes though :/