6 ms·

Based on comments to previous HN links on this topic, I expect we will be seeing some whataboutism that tries to divert criticism of China. So let ask anyone w

Based on comments to previous HN links on this topic, I expect we will be seeing some whataboutism that tries to divert criticism of China. So let ask anyone who makes such a comment, what is your political philosophy, are you for liberal democracy or Xi's brand of authoritarianism, or are you just a cynic who thinks all reform efforts are hopeless, or what?

dmitrygr 8y ago
Return question for you: do you believe as you imply that government exists in only two forms? Either a liberal democracy or authoritarianism?
- woodandsteel 8y ago
  No I don't. That's why my remark included "or what." But I listed those two because those are the two main types in the world today. Myself, I support liberal democracy in this battle. And let me ask you back, what type do you support?
  - dmitrygr 8y ago
    I prefer a government that stays out of the way, does not tell the people how to live, whom to transact with, or how. One that occupies itself solely with external security of the country. There aren't such any out there. We'll get there, eventually, I hope.
- outlace 8y ago
  There’s surely a spectrum from authoritarianism to liberal democracy, but there’s also a case to be made for free vs not free countries: if you can get into a public Twitter spat with the President of your country, and not worry someone will come break your legs (or worse) the next day, I call that a free country. Everything else is not.
  - RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
    The thing with US free speech though is that it is mostly only allowed in specific, ineffectual circumstances - like Twitter or "free speech zones". Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-arrests-dc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-... There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. China is of course much worse than the US, but I don't think the US is the gold standard here.
    - learc83 8y ago
      >Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? The 600 or so people who were arrested did so on purpose as part of the protest. They went there with the goal of being arrested and they staged a sit-in of a Senate office building in order to accomplish that goal. There were tens of thousands of other protesters marching through the streets who weren't arrested, asked to leave, or even bothered. >There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. I don't know of a country in the world were taking over the atrium of a government building and refusing to leave when the police order you to wouldn't get you arrested. What countries are you thinking of?
      - _jahh 8y ago
        Op bloviates/ they probably hate / those United States
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      > The thing with US free speech though is that it is mostly only allowed in specific, ineffectual circumstances - like Twitter or "free speech zones". This isn't true at all. Turn on cable news and read newspapers editorials. Read HN and Facebook and Reddit. See all the demonstrations around the U.S. today. Yes, some people have more powerful voices than others - people lack the bandwidth to give equal attention to over 300 million neighbors - but pretty much anyone can say anything, anywhere.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Of course there is a spectrum and more than one way to skin a cat, but when voicing a political opinion results in institutionalized punishment you can’t claim that the country is free regardless of any other circumstances. As someone else said here just the fact that you can get into a Twitter flame war with Trump proves the US is a free country not otherwise.
duxup 8y ago
The typical pattern for a while was something like "I'm in (or was) in China and things are fine, I had no problem using the internet...". Then some other stuff and some weird comment like "It was nice that I could walk around China freely and not have to worry about thieves unlike in the US."
- dogma1138 8y ago
  China is filled with scammers, you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities but you are in open season for the millions (literally) of thieves that use other means knowing that law enforcement is ineffective especially when it comes to foreigners as long as you don’t beat them up.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Most of the scammers appeal to ones vanity/vices. That’s why the biggest scam still revolves around lady bars. The law enforcement has a piece of the action, so they are of course ineffective. The police just care about violent crime, anything else is fair game unless Congress is in their once a year weekly session (at least in Beijing).
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities ... Less likely than where? Crime in western cities is at long-term lows. I've walked through many neighborhoods, rich and poor, in many western cities without concern.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  There are plenty of us laowai who were in China and didn’t think the internet was fine. My entire foreigner social circle at Microsoft China were unhappy with it, and no one could keep a VPN going reliably (unless they used free Azure credits). However, most left because of the apocalyptic pollution, not because of the bad internet.
  - duxup 8y ago
_jahh 8y ago
What about think democracy and statism coexist ? And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony of outcomes maybe viable path to stable eudomia
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony The evidence is overwhelming: The only path to freedom and prosperity for the people (i.e., not the ones in government) is democracy and freedom. Name a first world country without freedom and democracy.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological arguments. Those are deeply repetitive and therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 8y ago
Please keep generic political and national flamewar off Hacker News. It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dmitrygr 8y ago

Return question for you: do you believe as you imply that government exists in only two forms? Either a liberal democracy or authoritarianism?

woodandsteel 8y ago
No I don't. That's why my remark included "or what." But I listed those two because those are the two main types in the world today. Myself, I support liberal democracy in this battle. And let me ask you back, what type do you support?
- dmitrygr 8y ago
  I prefer a government that stays out of the way, does not tell the people how to live, whom to transact with, or how. One that occupies itself solely with external security of the country. There aren't such any out there. We'll get there, eventually, I hope.
outlace 8y ago
There’s surely a spectrum from authoritarianism to liberal democracy, but there’s also a case to be made for free vs not free countries: if you can get into a public Twitter spat with the President of your country, and not worry someone will come break your legs (or worse) the next day, I call that a free country. Everything else is not.
- RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
  The thing with US free speech though is that it is mostly only allowed in specific, ineffectual circumstances - like Twitter or "free speech zones". Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-arrests-dc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/us/politics/womens-march-... There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. China is of course much worse than the US, but I don't think the US is the gold standard here.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >Try doing something that is actually effective - like staging a protest - and you'll be charged with "unlawful demonstrating". How is that freedom? The 600 or so people who were arrested did so on purpose as part of the protest. They went there with the goal of being arrested and they staged a sit-in of a Senate office building in order to accomplish that goal. There were tens of thousands of other protesters marching through the streets who weren't arrested, asked to leave, or even bothered. >There are plenty of countries around the world that have real free speech. I don't know of a country in the world were taking over the atrium of a government building and refusing to leave when the police order you to wouldn't get you arrested. What countries are you thinking of?
    - _jahh 8y ago
      Op bloviates/ they probably hate / those United States
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    > The thing with US free speech though is that it is mostly only allowed in specific, ineffectual circumstances - like Twitter or "free speech zones". This isn't true at all. Turn on cable news and read newspapers editorials. Read HN and Facebook and Reddit. See all the demonstrations around the U.S. today. Yes, some people have more powerful voices than others - people lack the bandwidth to give equal attention to over 300 million neighbors - but pretty much anyone can say anything, anywhere.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dogma1138 8y ago
Of course there is a spectrum and more than one way to skin a cat, but when voicing a political opinion results in institutionalized punishment you can’t claim that the country is free regardless of any other circumstances. As someone else said here just the fact that you can get into a Twitter flame war with Trump proves the US is a free country not otherwise.

duxup 8y ago

The typical pattern for a while was something like "I'm in (or was) in China and things are fine, I had no problem using the internet...". Then some other stuff and some weird comment like "It was nice that I could walk around China freely and not have to worry about thieves unlike in the US."

dogma1138 8y ago
China is filled with scammers, you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities but you are in open season for the millions (literally) of thieves that use other means knowing that law enforcement is ineffective especially when it comes to foreigners as long as you don’t beat them up.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Most of the scammers appeal to ones vanity/vices. That’s why the biggest scam still revolves around lady bars. The law enforcement has a piece of the action, so they are of course ineffective. The police just care about violent crime, anything else is fair game unless Congress is in their once a year weekly session (at least in Beijing).
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > you are much less likely to get mugged as a westerner in major cities ... Less likely than where? Crime in western cities is at long-term lows. I've walked through many neighborhoods, rich and poor, in many western cities without concern.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
There are plenty of us laowai who were in China and didn’t think the internet was fine. My entire foreigner social circle at Microsoft China were unhappy with it, and no one could keep a VPN going reliably (unless they used free Azure credits). However, most left because of the apocalyptic pollution, not because of the bad internet.
- duxup 8y ago

_jahh 8y ago

What about think democracy and statism coexist ? And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony of outcomes maybe viable path to stable eudomia

forapurpose 8y ago
> And authoritarianism with proper consideration for harmony The evidence is overwhelming: The only path to freedom and prosperity for the people (i.e., not the ones in government) is democracy and freedom. Name a first world country without freedom and democracy.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into generic ideological arguments. Those are deeply repetitive and therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dang 8y ago

Please keep generic political and national flamewar off Hacker News. It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html