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I'll be 'that guy'. This is the number one use case for a cryptocurrency in my opinion - a decentralized microtransaction system. This isn't the first time Pat

I'll be 'that guy'. This is the number one use case for a cryptocurrency in my opinion - a decentralized microtransaction system. This isn't the first time Patreon has faced these issues and services like PayPal are notorious for closing your account then giving you the finger. I don't want to give my credit card info to 30 different sites or services or creators I want to support. I don't want a bunch of small recurring charges from different places on my credit card. And most of all, I don't want a service to arbitrarily be able to decide (or have others force their hand as in this case) what I am and am not allowed to support. I don't think the technology or people are remotely near ready for mainstream adoption yet but it is still the most compelling use case I've seen.

swizzbeats 8y ago
Well, all it takes is for the system to make it impossible to convert crypto to fiat.
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  Until one day you don’t need to.
  - swizzbeats 8y ago
    lol, downvote once an irrefutable comment pops up. salty much you crypto zombie?
  - imtringued 8y ago
    How are you going to pay your taxes with crypto?
em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
Unfortunately cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are a little ill-suited for automatic recurring payments because one of crypto's big selling points is that the crypto is stored on your computer, not in some bank or other computer, so it can't be easily automatically be taken from you. Of course maybe someone could develop a special type of crypto-currency or wallet system which allows for coin to be stored privately while also able to specify automatic transfers without any action by the user (nor the requirement to keep your computer online).
- vertex-four 8y ago
  This sort of thing is, actually, a reasonable use case for things like Ethereum's smart contracts. If there were a standard interface by which revocable "direct debits" could be created against users' wallets, this would be solved. Except that it needs more thinking about than that, because of questions like "what data source does everything use to agree that 1 month has passed since the last transaction", or "can I revoke a direct debit within a certain time period after the money's left my wallet" combined with "how do I get notified when money leaves my wallet". There's also the question of whether the ability to just register a monthly standing order with various common clients would be good enough, rather than needing to pull money. A lot of this is a UX exercise rather than a technical one, to be honest.
  - em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
    > "what data source does everything use to agree that 1 month has passed since the last transaction" That could easily just be the blockchain itself, by specifying the time in terms of number of blocks. > "can I revoke a direct debit within a certain time period after the money's left my wallet" That can be done by having the money first be sent to an escrow where sender could retrieve money with a special key. Notifications are easy: Email.
    - vertex-four 8y ago
      Time in terms of number of blocks is likely to drift over the years, isn’t it?
      - em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
        the time will vary around some mean, like a random walk, which might drift significantly over the years. But over a short time won't be off by too much.
  - heptathorp 8y ago
    Every Ethereum block contains a timestamp which smart contracts can read, so it's trivial to write code that only allows withdrawals in 1 month intervals. There's no way to revoke a transaction but you could implement a hold so ETH could only be withdrawn from the contract x days after the charge is incurred, within such time the owner could cancel the withdrawal. As far as notifications are concerned, there are events in Ethereum that you can subscribe to. So for example you could subscribe to a charge event, and go in and dispute it.
0x4f3759df 8y ago
Censorship resistant money is a nice use case. The lightning network will create microtransactions, I imagine devices negotiating for bandwidth and paying few satoshis for the privilege. Its too bad there is such an energy requirement built into the system, that's my I'm keeping my eye on Chia.
marcus_holmes 8y ago
I thought everyone decided Bitcoin was a store of value, not a transaction currency?
- koonsolo 8y ago
  The parent talked about cryptocurrencies, not blockchain, not bitcoin. There is a huge difference.
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    pardon my ignorance. I though Bitcoin was (is) a cryptocurrency. Can you explain the difference please?
    - koonsolo 8y ago
      Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is a blockchain. Not every cryptocurrency is a blockchain So not every cryptocurrency is Bitcoin And not every blockchain is Bitcoin
      - marcus_holmes 8y ago
        Ah I see. Thanks.
mirimir 8y ago
Mechanism aside, it does seem that Patreon etc need new payment processors. I had thought of using Patreon, but there's no way to get paid anonymously. And even if I could manage something ~anonymous with PayPal, I've read too many horror stories to ever trust them. I use VPS from several providers that accept Bitcoin etc. And I can maintain a cash balance to recover recurring charges. That's OK, for providers that I use routinely. So as you say, it'd be cool to have third-party payment processors, which are privacy-friendly and content-agnostic. But it's a nontrivial problem. I suppose that it could pay via direct transfer, with site/service/creator-specific accounts to protect against theft, and funding from Bitcoin etc. However, I suspect that only banks can do direct transfers, and starting banks is itself nontrivial.

swizzbeats 8y ago

Well, all it takes is for the system to make it impossible to convert crypto to fiat.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
Until one day you don’t need to.
- swizzbeats 8y ago
  lol, downvote once an irrefutable comment pops up. salty much you crypto zombie?
- imtringued 8y ago
  How are you going to pay your taxes with crypto?

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago

Unfortunately cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are a little ill-suited for automatic recurring payments because one of crypto's big selling points is that the crypto is stored on your computer, not in some bank or other computer, so it can't be easily automatically be taken from you. Of course maybe someone could develop a special type of crypto-currency or wallet system which allows for coin to be stored privately while also able to specify automatic transfers without any action by the user (nor the requirement to keep your computer online).

vertex-four 8y ago
This sort of thing is, actually, a reasonable use case for things like Ethereum's smart contracts. If there were a standard interface by which revocable "direct debits" could be created against users' wallets, this would be solved. Except that it needs more thinking about than that, because of questions like "what data source does everything use to agree that 1 month has passed since the last transaction", or "can I revoke a direct debit within a certain time period after the money's left my wallet" combined with "how do I get notified when money leaves my wallet". There's also the question of whether the ability to just register a monthly standing order with various common clients would be good enough, rather than needing to pull money. A lot of this is a UX exercise rather than a technical one, to be honest.
- em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
  > "what data source does everything use to agree that 1 month has passed since the last transaction" That could easily just be the blockchain itself, by specifying the time in terms of number of blocks. > "can I revoke a direct debit within a certain time period after the money's left my wallet" That can be done by having the money first be sent to an escrow where sender could retrieve money with a special key. Notifications are easy: Email.
  - vertex-four 8y ago
    Time in terms of number of blocks is likely to drift over the years, isn’t it?
    - em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
      the time will vary around some mean, like a random walk, which might drift significantly over the years. But over a short time won't be off by too much.
- heptathorp 8y ago
  Every Ethereum block contains a timestamp which smart contracts can read, so it's trivial to write code that only allows withdrawals in 1 month intervals. There's no way to revoke a transaction but you could implement a hold so ETH could only be withdrawn from the contract x days after the charge is incurred, within such time the owner could cancel the withdrawal. As far as notifications are concerned, there are events in Ethereum that you can subscribe to. So for example you could subscribe to a charge event, and go in and dispute it.

0x4f3759df 8y ago

Censorship resistant money is a nice use case. The lightning network will create microtransactions, I imagine devices negotiating for bandwidth and paying few satoshis for the privilege. Its too bad there is such an energy requirement built into the system, that's my I'm keeping my eye on Chia.

marcus_holmes 8y ago

I thought everyone decided Bitcoin was a store of value, not a transaction currency?

koonsolo 8y ago
The parent talked about cryptocurrencies, not blockchain, not bitcoin. There is a huge difference.
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  pardon my ignorance. I though Bitcoin was (is) a cryptocurrency. Can you explain the difference please?
  - koonsolo 8y ago
    Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is a blockchain. Not every cryptocurrency is a blockchain So not every cryptocurrency is Bitcoin And not every blockchain is Bitcoin
    - marcus_holmes 8y ago
      Ah I see. Thanks.

mirimir 8y ago

Mechanism aside, it does seem that Patreon etc need new payment processors. I had thought of using Patreon, but there's no way to get paid anonymously. And even if I could manage something ~anonymous with PayPal, I've read too many horror stories to ever trust them. I use VPS from several providers that accept Bitcoin etc. And I can maintain a cash balance to recover recurring charges. That's OK, for providers that I use routinely. So as you say, it'd be cool to have third-party payment processors, which are privacy-friendly and content-agnostic. But it's a nontrivial problem. I suppose that it could pay via direct transfer, with site/service/creator-specific accounts to protect against theft, and funding from Bitcoin etc. However, I suspect that only banks can do direct transfers, and starting banks is itself nontrivial.